What happens to a dis-armed populace.

"Chris Gynn" <chris.guynn@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:HIJbf.15991$dO2.8780@newssvr29.news.prodigy.n et...

> Funny... based on what's going on over there right now, I'd say that the
> scum are already armed. Perhaps not with firearms, but the scum are
> definitely carrying "molotov cocktails."

He gets it, just wont admit it.


--
"A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel." --
Robert Frost

Scott wrote:
> "Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick" <Buzcutt454@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:11muga46qvmkf77@news.supernews.com...
>
>>"Michael Wolf" <michael.wolf@advalvasstopspam.be> wrote in message
>>news:436f3db1$0$1204$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be.. .
>>
>>>Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote:
>>
>>>>>Against youths who would certainly be armed themselves then too?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They were already armed.
>>>
>>>Ah, so you advice that all French citizens carry molotov cocktails?
>>
>> No, I merely observe that they already can...
>
>
> Is it just me, or is this clown simple as a coffee can?
>
>

Oh, the guy from the 2nd row also wants to say something...

--
Michael Wolf

-----

Cthulhu For President.
Why settle for the lesser evil?

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"Michael Wolf" <michael.wolf@advalvasstopspam.be> wrote in message
news:436f6603$0$18294$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
> Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote:
> > "Froggy" <hub666@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1131366939.152298.94320@g43g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> >
> > Lee Bell a écrit :
> >
> >
> >>"Greg Mossman" wrote
> >>
> >>
> >>>So what does Muslim have to do with it? Thankfully the Muslims aren't
> >>>armed, is that your point?
> >>
> >>You think maybe gas and a match don't qualify as armed to the lady they
> >>burned to death? You think she's thankful they burned her instead of,
> >
> > say,
> >
> >>shooting her? Do you suppose that, if she were given the choice, she
> >
> > would
> >
> >>chose burning to death over the risk of an armed citizen present and
> >
> > willing
> >
> >>to protect her?
> >
> >
> > Of course in that particular instances one could only wish that there
> > had been an "armed citizen present and willing to protect her".
> >
> > But if you look at the whole situation, if guns were widespread in
> > France then it's likely that they would also be in the hands of these
> > hooligans, and that they would actually use them (it's already bad
> > enough that some policemen have been shot at with shotguns).
> >
> > Maybe, but you'd never have this 9-10 days of widespread rioting crap,
or
> > bands of youths holding busses at bay and torching cripples.
> >
> > In the US you do have widespread gun ownership. I think you do have
> > experienced violent riots as well.
> >
> > Yah, but they are short and contained.
> >
> > The Rodney King L.A. riots went on for a couple days, until U.S.
Marines
> > showed up and it got real quiet real quick.
>
> So, you needed the army. It wasn't enough to have armed law abiding
> citizens to stop it.
>
> >
> > I'm not saying that the situation is
> > better/worse in either country (probably worse here for the time being,
> > actually) but simply that more guns are probably not the solution to
> > the situation, if there is one...
> >
> > One legally carried pistol with a modicum of training would have saved
> > that woman's life.
>
> She didn't die.
>
> And you don't take into account that, if there's was an armed citizen on
> board of that bus, the scum that did that to her would also have been
armed.

He was already armed.

Either way, when it was all said and done, he (the scum) would *probably*
have been dead. Her (the victim) defender may have been able to save her
(victim) life (or maybe not). This way, she's (victim) dead and he's (scum)
not. The ONLY way this would have been worse is if both the victim and her
defender ended up dead and the scum did not (low liklihood). I'd take those
chances. Also, if the scum were "armed" as you seem to define it (handgun),
the victims death (if she died) would probably have been much less painful.

"Froggy" <hub666@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131371041.870133.246240@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

FYI, guns are far from being outlawed in France. There are about 18-25
million guns in circulation (for a population of about 60 million, the
highest ratio in Europe after Finland), and France is by far the
European country with the highest number of handguns (the ratio between
handguns to rifles being exceptionally high for Europe, being similar
to that of the US).

I'm grateful for this information.

It does help my argument to show that guns aren't the key to the American
"gun problem", as I've said here many, many times.


Updated: 09:43 AM EST
France Suffers 'Shock Wave' as Riots Spread
First Fatality Reported as Man Dies After Beating
By ANGELA DOLAND, AP

PARIS (Nov. 7) - Rioting by French youths spread to 300 towns overnight and
a man hurt in the violence died of his wounds, the first fatality in 11 days
of unrest that has shocked the country, police said Monday.

As urban unrest spread to neighboring Belgium and possibly Germany, the
French government faced growing criticism for its inability to stop the
violence, despite massive police deployment and continued calls for calm.

On Sunday night, vandals burned more than 1,400 vehicles, and clashes around
the country left 36 police injured, setting a new high for overnight arson
and violence since rioting started last month, national police chief Michel
Gaudin told a news conference.

Australia, Austria, Britain, Germany and Hungary advised their citizens to
exercise care in France, joining the United States and Russia in warning
tourists to stay away from violence-hit areas.

Alain Rahmouni, a national police spokesman, said the man who was beaten
died at a hospital from injuries sustained in the attack, but he had no
immediate details of the victim's age or his attacker.

The man was caught by surprise by an attacker after rushing out of his
apartment building to put out a trash can fire, Rahmouni said.

Apparent copycat attacks spread outside France for the first time, with five
cars torched outside Brussels' main train station, police in the Belgian
capital said.

The mayhem started as an outburst of anger in suburban Paris housing
projects and has fanned out nationwide among disaffected youths, mostly of
Muslim or African origin, to become France's worst civil unrest in more than
a decade.

Attacks overnight Sunday to Monday were reported in 274 towns, and police
made 395 arrests, Gaudin said.

"This spread, with a sort of shock wave spreading across the country, shows
up in the number of towns affected," Gaudin said, noting that the violence
appeared to be sliding away from its flash point in the Parisian suburbs and
worsening elsewhere.

It was the first time police had been injured by weapons' fire and there
were signs that rioters were deliberately seeking out clashes with police,
officials said.

Among the injured police, 10 were hurt by youths firing fine-grain birdshot
in a late-night clash in the southern Paris suburb of Grigny, national
police spokesman Patrick Hamon said. Two were hospitalized, but the injuries
were not considered life-threatening. One was wounded in the neck, the other
in the legs.

The unrest began Oct. 27 in the low-income Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois
after the deaths of two teenagers of Mauritanian and Tunisian origin. The
youths were accidentally electrocuted as they hid from police in a power
substation. They apparently thought they were being chased.

About 4,700 cars have been burned in France since the rioting began and
1,200 suspects were detained at least temporarily, Gaudin said.

The growing violence is forcing France to confront long-simmering anger in
its suburbs, where many Africans and their French-born children live on
society's margins, struggling with high unemployment, racial discrimination
and despair - fertile terrain for crime of all sorts as well as for Muslim
extremists offering frustrated youths a way out.

France, with 5 million Muslims, has the largest Islamic population in
Western Europe.

President Jacques Chirac, whose government is under intense pressure to halt
the violence, promised stern punishment for those behind the attacks, making
his first public comments Sunday since the riots started.

"The law must have the last word," Chirac said after a security meeting with
top ministers. France is determined "to be stronger than those who want to
sow violence or fear, and they will be arrested, judged and punished."

France's biggest Muslim fundamentalist organization, the Union for Islamic
Organizations of France, issued a fatwa, or religious decree, that forbade
all those "who seek divine grace from taking part in any action that blindly
strikes private or public property or can harm others."

Arsonists burned two schools and a bus in the central city of Saint-Etienne
and its suburbs, and two people were injured in the bus attack. Churches
were set ablaze in northern Lens and southern Sete, he said.

In Colombes in suburban Paris, youths pelted a bus with rocks, sending a
13-month-old child to the hospital with a head injury, Hamon said, while a
daycare center was burned in Saint-Maurice, another Paris suburb.

Much of the youths' anger has focused on law-and-order Interior Minister
Nicolas Sarkozy, whose reference to the troublemakers as "scum" appeared to
inflame passions.

Associated Press writers Emmanuel Georges-Picot in Paris, Thierry Boinet in
Grenoble and Jan Sliva in Strasbourg contributed to this report.


11/7/2005 09:43:30

"Michael Wolf" <michael.wolf@advalvasstopspam.be> wrote in message
news:436f6603$0$18294$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...

> > The Rodney King L.A. riots went on for a couple days, until U.S.
Marines
> > showed up and it got real quiet real quick.
>
> So, you needed the army. It wasn't enough to have armed law abiding
> citizens to stop it.

Sure, in the inner city, the rioters far outnumbered the armed citizens.

But the armed citizens could and did defend themselves.

And the unarmed could not.

> > I'm not saying that the situation is
> > better/worse in either country (probably worse here for the time being,
> > actually) but simply that more guns are probably not the solution to
> > the situation, if there is one...
> >
> > One legally carried pistol with a modicum of training would have saved
> > that woman's life.
>
> She didn't die.
>
> And you don't take into account that, if there's was an armed citizen on
> board of that bus, the scum that did that to her would also have been
armed.

As we've all pointed out, they -were- armed.

You better hope that rioting doesn't spread to Belgium, you guys are a
racial powder keg as well.

"Froggy" wrote in message
news:1131371041.870133.246240@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Now if weapons were not available, Iraq would not have an insurgency.
> We tend to think of the insurgency as a ... ?

Opportunity for target practice?

> FYI, guns are far from being outlawed in France. There are about 18-25
> million guns in circulation (for a population of about 60 million, the
> highest ratio in Europe after Finland), and France is by far the
> European country with the highest number of handguns (the ratio between
> handguns to rifles being exceptionally high for Europe, being similar
> to that of the US).

So you're saying that the French populace does not have to balls to use
their guns to defend their property? Seems to me that a couple of 12-gauge
rounds into the punks trying to burn a vehicle might make them reconsider...
Then again, maybe ya'll don't have any gators for disposal of the bodies
afterwards...

Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote:
> "Michael Wolf" <michael.wolf@advalvasstopspam.be> wrote in message
> news:436f645f$0$31774$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
>
>>Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote:
>>
>>>"Michael Wolf" <michael.wolf@advalvasstopspam.be> wrote in message
>>>news:436f3dd2$0$1204$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be. ..
>>>
>>>
>>>>Dennis (Icarus) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Michael Wolf" <michael.wolf@advalvasstopspam.be> wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>Against youths who would certainly be armed themselves then too?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Sure.
>>>>>Crooks like preying on folks who can't/won't fight back.
>>>>
>>>>So, you want gunfights on busses?
>>>
>>>
>>> Absolutely.
>>>
>>> But if the populace is armed, there wouldn't have been one...
>>>
>>>
>>
>>and there would never have been riots in LA...oh, wait a minute...
>
>
> Already answered.
>
> I didn't say there wouldn't be riots, the just wouldn't last for weeks
> virtually unopposed, bands of rioters wandering around the countryside
> burning schools, cripples, and FIVE THOUSAND cars.

it's 11 days, not weeks.
they made some 385 arrests yesterday, that's not unopposed (I do expect
the French government to send in troops if this continues still much longer)
they're not wandering around the countryside, the riots are taking place
in some of the suburbs (and only some) of all the major cities.

>
> Those little assholes burned one car in this neighborhood, and my
> neighbors wouldn't let 'em get off the street alive.

You're not living in one those suburbs (although 'ghettos' would be a
better word), so there's not really a chance for that to happen.

You start from a scenario where only your neighbors have guns...

>
> Gotta love those Koreans defending their convenience stores against mobs
> of rioters.


--
Michael Wolf

-----

Cthulhu For President.
Why settle for the lesser evil?

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"Michael Wolf" <michael.wolf@advalvasstopspam.be> wrote in message
news:436f74fd$0$20238$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
> Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote:


> > I didn't say there wouldn't be riots, the just wouldn't last for weeks
> > virtually unopposed, bands of rioters wandering around the countryside
> > burning schools, cripples, and FIVE THOUSAND cars.
>
> it's 11 days, not weeks.
> they made some 385 arrests yesterday, that's not unopposed (I do expect
> the French government to send in troops if this continues still much
longer)
> they're not wandering around the countryside, the riots are taking place
> in some of the suburbs (and only some) of all the major cities.

"Rioting by French youths spread to 300 towns overnight and a man hurt in
the violence died of his wounds - the first fatality in 11 days of unrest,
police said Monday. Governments worldwide urged their citizens to be careful
in France."

"As urban violence spread to neighboring Belgium and possibly Germany, the
French government faced growing criticism for its inability to stop the
violence, despite massive police deployment and continued calls for calm."
"Vandals burned more than 1,400 vehicles overnight Sunday, and clashes
around the country left 36 police injured, setting a new high for nightly
arson and violence since rioting started Oct. 27, France's national police
chief, Michel Gaudin, told a news conference."

That's virtually unopposed in my book.

And 300 towns and two other countries isn't "some of the suburbs (and only
some) of all the major cities".

> > Those little assholes burned one car in this neighborhood, and my
> > neighbors wouldn't let 'em get off the street alive.
>
> You're not living in one those suburbs (although 'ghettos' would be a
> better word), so there's not really a chance for that to happen.

300 towns, Germany and Belgium.

You guys sure have a lot of "ghettos".

> You start from a scenario where only your neighbors have guns...

Oh, no.

Much to the consternation of John Francis, we always assume any criminal
is possibly or probably armed.

We just don't care.

"Michael Wolf" wrote in message
news:436f6972$0$10047$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
> So, you too are advocating that French citizens arms themselves with
> molotov cocktails?

I didn't think that wine burned that well...

Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote:
> "Michael Wolf" <michael.wolf@advalvasstopspam.be> wrote in message
> news:436f74fd$0$20238$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
>
>>Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote:
>
>
>
>>> I didn't say there wouldn't be riots, the just wouldn't last for weeks
>>>virtually unopposed, bands of rioters wandering around the countryside
>>>burning schools, cripples, and FIVE THOUSAND cars.
>>
>>it's 11 days, not weeks.
>>they made some 385 arrests yesterday, that's not unopposed (I do expect
>>the French government to send in troops if this continues still much
>
> longer)
>
>>they're not wandering around the countryside, the riots are taking place
>>in some of the suburbs (and only some) of all the major cities.
>
>
> "Rioting by French youths spread to 300 towns overnight and a man hurt in
> the violence died of his wounds - the first fatality in 11 days of unrest,
> police said Monday. Governments worldwide urged their citizens to be careful
> in France."
>
> "As urban violence spread to neighboring Belgium and possibly Germany, the
> French government faced growing criticism for its inability to stop the
> violence, despite massive police deployment and continued calls for calm."
> "Vandals burned more than 1,400 vehicles overnight Sunday, and clashes
> around the country left 36 police injured, setting a new high for nightly
> arson and violence since rioting started Oct. 27, France's national police
> chief, Michel Gaudin, told a news conference."
>
> That's virtually unopposed in my book.

so, how did 36 police men get hurt then?

>
> And 300 towns and two other countries isn't "some of the suburbs (and only
> some) of all the major cities".

France has more major towns then you think and you should read a bit
more about what (only) happened in the other 2 countries...

and it still is confined to some suburbs of the cities.


>
>
>>> Those little assholes burned one car in this neighborhood, and my
>>>neighbors wouldn't let 'em get off the street alive.
>>
>>You're not living in one those suburbs (although 'ghettos' would be a
>>better word), so there's not really a chance for that to happen.
>
>
> 300 towns, Germany and Belgium.

You're not living in one those towns, nor in Belgium or Germany, so?

>
> You guys sure have a lot of "ghettos".

France indeed has. You can compare them to some of the infamous estates
in the UK (remember the Brixton riots?)


>
>
>>You start from a scenario where only your neighbors have guns...
>
>
> Oh, no.
>
> Much to the consternation of John Francis, we always assume any criminal
> is possibly or probably armed.
>
> We just don't care.

So, we're talking here about the assholes being dead and some of the
neighbors.


--
Michael Wolf

-----

Cthulhu For President.
Why settle for the lesser evil?

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