SAC Calculations for "Multi-Level" Diving

On 8 Apr 2007 16:52:26 -0700, "Greg Mossman" <mossman@qnet.com> wrote:
> In the badly paraphrased words of a former rec.scuban: please write
> your old lady's phone number on your tank so they know who to call.

Maybe he can leave a photo of her pasted to the tank so we can know if
she's *worth* calling... <dirty-old-man-grin>

On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 01:55:05 +0000, Grumman-581 <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com> wrote:

>On 8 Apr 2007 16:52:26 -0700, "Greg Mossman" <m....an@qnet.com> wrote:
>> In the badly paraphrased words of a former rec.scuban: please write
>> your old lady's phone number on your tank so they know who to call.
>
>Maybe he can leave a photo of her pasted to the tank so we can know if
>she's *worth* calling... <dirty-old-man-grin>

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm currently "unattached."

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold

On Apr 8, 6:50 pm, mag3 <zmpmag3-plon...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> And what does any of that have to do with taking a class? There's nothing wrong
> with taking the class. The class dives are in a controlled environment (there at Dutch)
> supervised by two instructors (both of whom are SDI/TDI "Instructor Trainers" and PADI
> "Master Instructors." The deco profiles are minimal.

> I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently confident in my skills
> and experience to take this class. And so are my instructors, or they wouldn't let me take
> it. There are some dives I want to do at around 130fsw but that might go into a deco scenario
> if I want to stay down that far longer than 10 minutes. And that's all I want at this point.
> No more, honest!

Your instructors are confident as long as your credit card clears.

But you're taking a tech class with only 60 dives under your belt, in
a quarry, then expecting to do your "deco scenario" in the real ocean,
right? The same ocean that chewed you up and spit you out just a few
months ago on a shallow reef dive in the frickin' Florida Keys.
Amazing.

> I appreciate your concern Greg, but I really wouldn't worry. I'm not.

I'm not concerned about you. More like amazed at your indifference to
life and astonished you haven't started instructor training yet.
Don't you only need 60 dives to do that? What are you waiting for?

On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 02:32:20 GMT, mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Sorry to disappoint, but I'm currently "unattached."

Damn, you're smarter than you appeared ! <grin>

On 8 Apr 2007 20:44:22 -0700, "Greg Mossman" <m.....n@qnet.com> wrote:

>On Apr 8, 6:50 pm, mag3 <zmpmag3-plon...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently confident in my skills
>> and experience to take this class. And so are my instructors, or they wouldn't let me take
>> it. There are some dives I want to do at around 130fsw but that might go into a deco scenario
>> if I want to stay down that far longer than 10 minutes. And that's all I want at this point.
>> No more, honest!
>
>Your instructors are confident as long as your credit card clears.

No, not these instructors. If I wasn't ready for something, t hey'd tell me. They actually do have
reputations to protect.

>
>But you're taking a tech class with only 60 dives under your belt, in
>a quarry, then expecting to do your "deco scenario" in the real ocean,
>right? The same ocean that chewed you up and spit you out just a few
>months ago on a shallow reef dive in the frickin' Florida Keys.
>Amazing.

As stated before, I'm a bit better prepared for the "FFK's" then I was in January. I know
how dive ops work there, and I know it's OK to surface if need be to get your bearings then
go back down to make your way back to the boat. And I know to do that now when I need to
(ie. when "rule of 3rds" kicks in).

We'll certainly find out this June when I get "back on the horse" of which I fell of. Too bad you
won't be there to see how I do!

>> I appreciate your concern Greg, but I really wouldn't worry. I'm not.
>
>I'm not concerned about you. More like amazed at your indifference to
>life

I am *not* indifferent to life as you say. I care a lot about living, and that's why I take classes
to get the training I need for the things I want to do. As previously stated, all I want to do here
is be prepared to extend my bottom time on a dive that skirts the "recreational" depth and time
limits by just a hair. I'm not trying to do some super huge technical monster dive Not at all.

>and astonished you haven't started instructor training yet.
>Don't you only need 60 dives to do that? What are you waiting for?

For DM you actually need only 20 to start and 60 by the time you finish. And yes, all the other
prerequisites I have already. So what am I waiting for? Several things:

1) The desire to do it (which I don't have right now);

2) For my stamina and physical strength to improve (which will over time);

3) For my diving skills to improve to the point where I'm confident enough to teach
them to others (for which the "Solo" card and 100+ logged dives I seek will help a little);

I have no desire to work professionally as a DM or instructor - Doesn't pay enough. But I do have a
10 y/o niece and 7 y/o nephew (see, I *do* have something to live for) for which I'd like to be there
to supervise their training when the time comes. Yes, some instructors I've worked with (and not the
two I'm taking this current course from), have sought to DM me already. It is I who told them "no,"
not 'till the above are satisfied.

So are you satisfied now???



____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold

mag3 wrote

>>Use a computer or watch (Citizen Hyper Aqualand) to give you average depth
>>and use that in your calculations.

> Thanks. I actually can get "average" depth from my current computer as it
> stores depth
> and other stats every 15 seconds during the dive. I can easily plug that
> into Al's SAC
> calculator.

I didn't see Al's calculator, but considering the source, I'm sure it's
accurate. Still, I recommend calculating SAC yourself. Adjusting for depth
and pressure is a worthy learning experience, one that will help you keep in
mind that 3 ata of depth is 4 ata of pressure.

One more suggestion. Start paying a bit of attention to the conditions of
each dive you calculate SAC for, from the easy drift with the current, to
the no current casual tour of pretty reefs, to the battle up current. Also
give some consideration to your stress levels, things like being deeper than
normal, or under conditions you're not used to. All of these things will
change your gas consumption and, while your resting SAC is a valid tool for
planning future dives, your actual SAC is what determines whether or not you
get back to the surface with a reserve or fail to get back to the surface at
all.

Lee

On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 08:43:45 GMT, mag3 wrote:
> No, not these instructors. If I wasn't ready for something, t hey'd
> tell me. They actually do have reputations to protect.

They won't know until they see you perform the skills required for this
class. And they'll have at least some of your money by then, which is
really all that matters to them.

Anyway, Arnold, I think you're missing Greg's point.

You might be an exception, but generally speaking, one doesn't gain the
kind of skill you'll need to dive safely without actually diving. And
60 dives isn't enough to have the foundation you'll need to go on to
technical diving.

I admire your ambition, and your desire to gain skills and proficiency.
You're relatively young. You have plenty of time. Take your time. I
guarantee you'll enjoy all this at least as much if you do. And I
guarantee you won't be missing anything if you don't move so fast.

--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net

On 9 Kwi, 10:43, mag3 <zmpmag3-plon...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 8 Apr 2007 20:44:22 -0700, "Greg Mossman" <m......@qnet.com> wrote:
>
> >On Apr 8, 6:50 pm, mag3 <zmpmag3-plon...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently confident in my skills
> >> and experience to take this class. And so are my instructors, or they wouldn't let me take
> >> it. There are some dives I want to do at around 130fsw but that might go into a deco scenario
> >> if I want to stay down that far longer than 10 minutes. And that's all I want at this point.
> >> No more, honest!
>
> >Your instructors are confident as long as your credit card clears.
>
> No, not these instructors. If I wasn't ready for something, t hey'd tell me. They actually do have
> reputations to protect.
>
>
>
> >But you're taking a tech class with only 60 dives under your belt, in
> >a quarry, then expecting to do your "deco scenario" in the real ocean,
> >right? The same ocean that chewed you up and spit you out just a few
> >months ago on a shallow reef dive in the frickin' Florida Keys.
> >Amazing.
>
> As stated before, I'm a bit better prepared for the "FFK's" then I was in January. I know
> how dive ops work there, and I know it's OK to surface if need be to get your bearings then
> go back down to make your way back to the boat. And I know to do that now when I need to
> (ie. when "rule of 3rds" kicks in).
>
> We'll certainly find out this June when I get "back on the horse" of which I fell of. Too bad you
> won't be there to see how I do!
>
> >> I appreciate your concern Greg, but I really wouldn't worry. I'm not.
>
> >I'm not concerned about you. More like amazed at your indifference to
> >life
>
> I am *not* indifferent to life as you say. I care a lot about living, and that's why I take classes
> to get the training I need for the things I want to do. As previously stated, all I want to do here
> is be prepared to extend my bottom time on a dive that skirts the "recreational" depth and time
> limits by just a hair. I'm not trying to do some super huge technical monster dive Not at all.
>
> >and astonished you haven't started instructor training yet.
> >Don't you only need 60 dives to do that? What are you waiting for?
>
> For DM you actually need only 20 to start and 60 by the time you finish. And yes, all the other
> prerequisites I have already. So what am I waiting for? Several things:
>
> 1) The desire to do it (which I don't have right now);
>
> 2) For my stamina and physical strength to improve (which will over time);
>
> 3) For my diving skills to improve to the point where I'm confident enough to teach
> them to others (for which the "Solo" card and 100+ logged dives I seek will help a little);
>
> I have no desire to work professionally as a DM or instructor - Doesn't pay enough. But I do have a
> 10 y/o niece and 7 y/o nephew (see, I *do* have something to live for) for which I'd like to be there
> to supervise their training when the time comes. Yes, some instructors I've worked with (and not the
> two I'm taking this current course from), have sought to DM me already. It is I who told them "no,"
> not 'till the above are satisfied.
>
> So are you satisfied now???
>
> ____________________________________________
> Regards,
>
> Arnold

OMG Arnold you may be a nice kid, but diving with you would be like
sitting on gunpowder barrel and playing with matches. Time to grow
up. First answer yourself simple question - why do you dive? I have
strange impression that you have some kind of inferiority complex and
scuba is your way to compensate it.

Janusz

On Apr 9, 1:43 am, mag3 <zmpmag3-plon...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> As stated before, I'm a bit better prepared for the "FFK's" then I was in January. I know
> how dive ops work there, and I know it's OK to surface if need be to get your bearings then
> go back down to make your way back to the boat. And I know to do that now when I need to
> (ie. when "rule of 3rds" kicks in).

Good start. You still have a lot to learn before you engage in any
more learning.

> I am *not* indifferent to life as you say. I care a lot about living, and that's why I take classes
> to get the training I need for the things I want to do. As previously stated, all I want to do here
> is be prepared to extend my bottom time on a dive that skirts the "recreational" depth and time
> limits by just a hair. I'm not trying to do some super huge technical monster dive Not at all.

Bullshit. The TDI Advanced Nitrox/Deco. Procedures class trains you
to go to 150' with up to a half-hour of mandatory deco. That's more
than a "hair".

If you merely want to extend your bottom time skirting the
"recreational" depth and time, you don't need a class. When you can
responsibly manage your own gas, and with the use of practically any
dive computer, you can easily skirt the limits by just a hair.

But with a card telling you that you're certified to 150' for a half-
hour of deco, why stop there? Heck, you're narced at that depth, with
absolutely no experience being narced, so why would you stop? Do it
solo even, once you have the solo card.

What you lack is the experience that can tell you what your limits
are. Until then, you're relying on what your card "allows" you to do
and with your limited experience, that's a deadly combination.

And that's my first point, in a nutshell: experience breeds a good
diver as much or more than any class. Too much class can be dangerous
when you haven't yet honed your basic instincts.

My second point is, why rush it? Wake up and smell the roses. Except
for a handful of wrecks around the world, there's plenty of great
diving above 130'. What is so important below 130' that you can't
wait for a few more years of experience before getting there, even if
means endangering your life?

First Art said:

>You might be an exception, but generally speaking, one doesn't gain the
>kind of skill you'll need to dive safely without actually diving. And
>60 dives isn't enough to have the foundation you'll need to go on to
>technical diving.

>I admire your ambition, and your desire to gain skills and proficiency.
>You're relatively young. You have plenty of time. Take your time. I
>guarantee you'll enjoy all this at least as much if you do. And I
>guarantee you won't be missing anything if you don't move so fast.
>

Then Januz said:

>OMG Arnold you may be a nice kid, but diving with you would be like
>sitting on gunpowder barrel and playing with matches. Time to grow
>up. First answer yourself simple question - why do you dive? I have
>strange impression that you have some kind of inferiority complex and
>scuba is your way to compensate it.

And Finally, Greg said:

>What you lack is the experience that can tell you what your limits
>are. Until then, you're relying on what your card "allows" you to do
>and with your limited experience, that's a deadly combination.
>
>And that's my first point, in a nutshell: experience breeds a good
>diver as much or more than any class. Too much class can be dangerous
>when you haven't yet honed your basic instincts.
>
>My second point is, why rush it? Wake up and smell the roses. Except
>for a handful of wrecks around the world, there's plenty of great
>diving above 130'. What is so important below 130' that you can't
>wait for a few more years of experience before getting there, even if
>means endangering your life?


MESSAGE RECEIVED!!!!!

Three of you saying the same thing in essence is more than enough for me.

I will not be taking the class. I will not be doing any dives beyond my experience level.
I misunderstood the intent of the class vs. my own intentions. I really only wanted to stay
at 130fsw for a little more than 10 min (about 15 min, 20 max). There were some sites
in Tahiti that have coral formations at that depth I wanted to photograph. They can wait.
I hope they're still there when I *am* ready for it (these formations are dying rapidly),
but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

If this TDI class is training for "hard core" technical dives, then no, it would not be appropriate
at this time. At least I found this out before spending all kinds of cash and discovering it
wasn't right. And for that, I thank all of the above. For the same reasons I'm not ready
for any professional certs (DM etc.), I'm not ready for this either. Perhaps someday. In the
mean time, I look forward to both the NJ and FL. rec.scubans giving me more "experience"
with regular dives so that I can get to that point, at some point.

Thanks guys. I needed that.



____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold