Sausage as dive flag?

"Diesel" <tony@samesamediving.com> wrote in message
news:f26vl9$1rki$1@energise.enta.net...
> Dennis (Icarus) wrote:
> > "Diesel" <tony@samesamediving.com> wrote in message
> > news:f25cio$2040$2@energise.enta.net...
> >> >>
> >> >> It does not comply with Florida law.
> >> >>
> >> >> Lee
> >> >>
> >> > Nor Virginia law.
> >>
> >> You've got some weird laws!
> >
> > Not really - the laws require what flag must be flown to indicate that
> > divers are in the water.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > So what flag is the boat flying while conducting dive operations?
> > And, when shore diving, do you tow a flag to indicate divers are in the
> > water, presumably similar in design to the one a boat flies to indicate
> > there are divers in the water?
> >
> > Dennis
> >
> >
> Dennis,
>
> The boat would fly the A (Alpha) flag, which is the ICS, International
> Code Of Signals flag denoting 'Divers in the Water'.

Yes indeed.

>
> The Red flag with diagonal white stripe is primarily used in the US and
> other US led countries as an unofficial 'divers down' flag, but it is
> little used in the UK, Europe, Africa or Asia, and both it and the A
> flag are to be found in the Caribbean, Australia and Far East, including
> Micronesia and Oceania. Outside of the US (and I believe also within
> the US) non-diving skippers don't take much notice of red / stripe,
> unless its the Caribbean brand of Lager beer
>
> The A flag should only be raised when divers are actually in the water,
> not whilst in transit to or from the dive site.
>
> You can see the A flag at http://www.ukdivers.com/info/flags.asp

I've seen it. So...a safety sausage with "diver down" could not be used as a
substitute for the A flag in the UK?
Neither the A flag nor diver down flag can be replaced by a safety sausage
with diver down in the US.

Guess our laws aren't so strange then?

Dennis

Diesel wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> It does not comply with Florida law.
> >>
> >> Lee
> >>
> > Nor Virginia law.
>
> You've got some weird laws!

How are the laws weird?

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...cod+29.1-734.1

The original question was using a safety sausage instead of a surface or
vessel mounted dive flag. In Virginia, that flag is defined by law, and
is consistent with the US recognized dive flag (red background with
white diagonal stripe).

Some places may require the international "Alpha" flag instead. Some
may allow either /or.

I don't disagree with divers carrying a sausage or some other type
surface signal. I just don't agree that should be used instead of a
recognized "diver down" signal.



>

Diesel wrote:

> Dennis,
>
> There is no 'law' in the UK as to what divers use as surface marker
> buoys or flags.
>
> The flying of an A flag on the boat does not negate the requirement to
> deploy surface marker buoys by the divers, as they are for entirely
> different purposes.
>
> The flag on the boat is to notify other boats of the divers in the
> water; whereas the SMB is primarily there so that the dive boat skipper
> knows where the individual divers are in relation to his boat, that they
> are OK and that (except in the case of drift dives where the SMB is used
> for the entire dive) that the diver has commenced their ascent.
>
> The only true convention is that regarding the flying of the A flag on
> the boat when the divers are actually in the water, not that many of the
> other idiot boat owners know what it means or comply with safe piloting!
>
> As far as divers are concerned, it is just common practice that a Red
> 'sausage' or lift bag is normally deployed to denote the start of the
> ascent or during a drift dive. Yellow DSMB's are primarily used as a
> emergency marker, often meaning 'send down more gas' or whatever was
> agreed with the skipper and Dive Marshall on the boat before the dive
> commenced.
>
> For some reason (I've yet to find out why) some DSMB's are made with one
> side red and the other side yellow, in my opinion that's bloody
> confusing for the skipper! (He's OK, nope needs gas, nope OK ..........)
>
> I and many divers paint or use a permanent marker to put our name or
> initials in large letters on the DSMB so that the skipper knows which
> divers are under each of the markers. Some also have the words 'Diver
> Below Do Not Lift" printed by the manufacturer onto the DSMB. Some
> emergency DSMB's also have a area which can be written on with pencil by
> the diver to denote what the problem is. All are personal diver choice
> (as long as it's pre-agreed policy with the skipper & DM).
>
> I also used to have a flag attached to a 2m/7ft extendible pole attached
> by bungee to my cylinders, which I could unfurl and deploy so that the
> skipper can find us in heavy seas with high waves (higher that the
> height of me and a DSMB), but it's easier to carry a longer thinner DSMB
> instead. This flag could be either red or yellow or any other colour
> (whichever has the highest visibility).
>
> These conventions have just grown through practice and the conventions
> passed down by DM's, instructors and boat skippers so that we have come
> to a agreed 'standard' but not by any fixed 'Law', although with the
> plethora of stupid laws coming out of the EU that may change.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tony
>

That's pretty much the conventions used here in SoFla, except that it is
the law that a boat must fly the red/white dive flag when divers are in
the water.

Because most of our diving is drift diving, each dive group tows a float
with the red/white dive flag, and a sausage or bag becomes some kind of
alert (separated diver, diver doing deco, salvage coming up) for the
boat driver. One of the main jobs of the boat driver is to watch for
traffic and move to shield his divers. Sometimes it gets a bit hairy.

There is no requirement here for a boater to have a license, or even any
knowledge of boating law/regulations/conventions, and that is a problem.
The dive flag is meaningless to most of the boats out there and some
will even zoom in just to see what it is.

Reef Rescue plans to get together a brochure for boaters to teach proper
anchoring around the reefs, most don't understand it's naughty to anchor
in the middle of the reef.

What's needed is a boating license, it's nuts to think a boater will get
the knowledge by osmosis.

esg

> That's pretty much the conventions used here in SoFla, except that it is
> the law that a boat must fly the red/white dive flag when divers are in
> the water.

The law requires all boats with divers in the water to fly the red and white
flag and for the divers to stay within a specified range of the boat. As
far as I know, all commercial dive boats fly the Alpha flag as well. I
would venture to say that most recreational boat operators don't know what
the alpha flag signifies. Military and other government dive boats run
shape up to indicate dive operations in progress and even I don't know what
they are. I do know that I got chewed out once in the Intracoastal for
creating more of a wake near one than they thought appropriate.

> Because most of our diving is drift diving, each dive group tows a float
> with the red/white dive flag, and a sausage or bag becomes some kind of
> alert (separated diver, diver doing deco, salvage coming up) for the boat
> driver. One of the main jobs of the boat driver is to watch for traffic
> and move to shield his divers. Sometimes it gets a bit hairy.

Most of us tow them because it's required by law when more than the
specified distance from the boat or when diving from shore. Also, the towed
flag may be smaller. The required size for boats was increased a few years
ago. If they're being picky, your towable flag will not do if flown from
the boat.

> There is no requirement here for a boater to have a license, or even any
> knowledge of boating law/regulations/conventions, and that is a problem.
> The dive flag is meaningless to most of the boats out there and some will
> even zoom in just to see what it is.

That's not quite true. There are plenty of requirements for knowledge of
boating laws and regulations. There's just no requirement for getting the
knowledge formally. Further, I think a poll would find that, by far, the
majority of boat operators anywhere in the US know what the dive flag looks
like and have some idea of what it means. On the other hand, we all know
what speed limit signs mean too.

> Reef Rescue plans to get together a brochure for boaters to teach proper
> anchoring around the reefs, most don't understand it's naughty to anchor
> in the middle of the reef.

Most don't know how to anchor anywhere. Trying to anchor in sand near the
reef is useless if you don't know how to get the anchor to set securely. It
simply drags until it hooks on the reef anyway.

> What's needed is a boating license, it's nuts to think a boater will get
> the knowledge by osmosis.

I respectfully disagree. I think you might make a case for requiring all
boaters to take some kind of familiarization course, but a license is
unnecessary. It's just another vehicle for the government's hunger for tax
money. There's already a process for enforcing the laws and even a process
that requires those ticketed more than once to take a boating safety course.
Like just about everything else, the laws we have are enough, they're just
not enforced. These days, everybody with the ability or authority to
enforce boating safety laws is part of Homeland Security, or thinks they
are, and believe that they have more important work to do . . . like riding
around at the taxpayer's expense trying to catch Cubans before they can set
foot on dry ground or checking to make sure the toothpaste in my carry on is
not in too big a tube, even if it's squeezed down to nearly nothing.

Lee

On Tue, 22 May 2007 14:10:22 GMT, El Stroko Guapo
<omgray@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>What's needed is a boating license, it's nuts to think a boater will get
>the knowledge by osmosis.
>
>esg

*****
<Five Stars>

Lee Bell wrote:

>
>>What's needed is a boating license, it's nuts to think a boater will get
>>the knowledge by osmosis.
>
>
> I respectfully disagree.

Lee, you ignorant slut:

I think you might make a case for requiring all
> boaters to take some kind of familiarization course, but a license is
> unnecessary. It's just another vehicle for the government's hunger for tax
> money. There's already a process for enforcing the laws and even a process
> that requires those ticketed more than once to take a boating safety course.
> Like just about everything else, the laws we have are enough, they're just
> not enforced. These days, everybody with the ability or authority to
> enforce boating safety laws is part of Homeland Security, or thinks they
> are, and believe that they have more important work to do . . . like riding
> around at the taxpayer's expense trying to catch Cubans before they can set
> foot on dry ground or checking to make sure the toothpaste in my carry on is
> not in too big a tube, even if it's squeezed down to nearly nothing.

To drive a car, you need to have proof that you were exposed to some
basic training. Ditto for a carry permit. Or an airplane. What's
different about a boat?

Enforcement is not the issue (at least in this argument), the issue is
requiring PROOF that "some kind of familiarization course" has been
received. Any idiot can jump in a boat with no understanding of what a
"no wake zone" is or what a dive flag means. My one near death
experience with a boat might not have been avoided by licensure,
but I like to think the twelve year old driving the forty-footer might
have understood that he wasn't supposed to run over canoes. Or at least
stop to check for bodies.

Rick Simms wrote

>>What's needed is a boating license, it's nuts to think a boater will get
>>the knowledge by osmosis.

> *****
> <Five Stars>

Boooo. What we need is torpedo tubes for dive boats and really big bang
sticks for divers.

Lee

El Stroko Guapo wrote

>>>What's needed is a boating license, it's nuts to think a boater will get
>>>the knowledge by osmosis.

>> I respectfully disagree.

> Lee, you ignorant slut:

Not ignorant. I currently have 3 power boats and a Kayak. Had at least one
power boat since I was 6. Been diving since I was 14. Learned a thing or
two in the interim. Still a slut, always will be.

> To drive a car, you need to have proof that you were exposed to some basic
> training. Ditto for a carry permit. Or an airplane.
> What's different about a boat?

Actually, you don't need proof. You can get in a car and drive it,
possibly for your whole life, without ever being stopped and asked to prove
anything. The first violation, however, will change that. In boating, it
takes two violations. Perhaps that's because boats are so much easier to
operate and because there are so few boating fatalities. Otherwise, they're
the same. Both certainly should be preceeded by some kind of training.
I've already agreed with that. It's the license that I disagree with. I
have enough of them. I have a license to hunt, a license to fish, a license
to take lobster, a license to drive, a license to drive my ATV (this one
issued by the federal government), a license to carry a concealed weapon and
probably more licenses that I've forgottin about. They're all just another
way to separate me from my money. None of them are a reliable indicator,
let alone proof, of competency.

It's easy for us to jump on the license bandwagon just because some people
are idiots. Idiots don't get better just because they have a license.

> Enforcement is not the issue (at least in this argument), the issue is
> requiring PROOF that "some kind of familiarization course"
> has been received.

A government licensing process always involves enforcement. Without it,
there's no point in the rule. The very people you wish to address will not
comply.

> Any idiot can jump in a boat with no understanding of what a "no wake
> zone" is or what a dive flag means. My one near death experience with a
> boat might not have been avoided by licensure, but I like to think the
> twelve year old driving the forty-footer
> might have understood that he wasn't supposed to run over canoes. Or at
> least stop to check for bodies.

Any idiot will still be able to jump in a boat with no understanding. It's
unlikely that a 14 year old will be affected even if there is a licensing
requirement. Besides, I've never experienced any boating training that
taught that a "no wake zone" is an area where you have to go as slow as
possible and still make headway in order to protect manatees that are not
there, and the seawall of some rich jerk from someplace else that is there.
That's not a real good example of why the government should become more
involved.

I just looked up Florida law and I'm pleased to see it's changed since the
last time I looked. It used to say that approaching vessels "should"
proceed no faster than . . . " instead of the current wording "must".
Notice that the slow speed requirement is the only actual requirement that
applies to other vessels and that it does not apply to Law Enforcement or
rescue vessels. You only have to make a reasonable effort to stay 300 feet
away and even that requirement is immediately followed by rules for coming
closer.

I also get a kick out of the requirement that no person operate any vessel
displaying a diver's down flag unless the vessel has one or more divers in
the water. Hell, even the Coast Guard licensed boats don't comply with that
one.

Lee

"Diesel" <tony@samesamediving.com> wrote in message
news:f2u630$1cps$1@energise.enta.net...
> Dennis,
>
> There is no 'law' in the UK as to what divers use as surface marker
> buoys or flags.

Ah. Here there is. If the diver is within the range of the boat, then they
don't need an independent marker.
Tech divers may use DSMBs as you describe.

Its possible that divers who were downcurrent from the boat and ae waiting
to be picked up, they might get cited if they were out of the legislated
range.
Hopefully not.

If diving from shore, without the towable dive flag, tjhen you may get
fined.

>
> The flying of an A flag on the boat does not negate the requirement to
> deploy surface marker buoys by the divers, as they are for entirely
> different purposes.

Sure, because they're covered by the boat's A flag.

>
> The flag on the boat is to notify other boats of the divers in the
> water; whereas the SMB is primarily there so that the dive boat skipper
> knows where the individual divers are in relation to his boat, that they
> are OK and that (except in the case of drift dives where the SMB is used
> for the entire dive) that the diver has commenced their ascent.

If not diving from a boat though......I tak it there's no need for them to
display anything?

>
> The only true convention is that regarding the flying of the A flag on
> the boat when the divers are actually in the water, not that many of the
> other idiot boat owners know what it means or comply with safe piloting!

Understood.

<snip>
>
> I also used to have a flag attached to a 2m/7ft extendible pole attached
> by bungee to my cylinders, which I could unfurl and deploy so that the
> skipper can find us in heavy seas with high waves (higher that the
> height of me and a DSMB), but it's easier to carry a longer thinner DSMB
> instead. This flag could be either red or yellow or any other colour
> (whichever has the highest visibility).

Sounds good.

<snip>