OT: Politicizing the tragedy

Scott,

Could you just leave politics aside for a while?

Just let people do what they can to help, be it via the UN, USAID or
NGOs.

Cheers,

Froggy


"They haven't yet identified all the dead, and already the shitbags
here are using their
death and the aftermath as a podium for their partisan attacks. Too
fucking
selfish, self important and stupid to feel ashamed of themselves."

dazed and confuzed wrote:
> spinoza1111@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Furthermore, every Euro is now worth 1.35 times every dollar, and the
>> value of contributions in Euros is increasing.
>>
>> Images of crew throwing insufficient supplies to people might make
>> Americans feel good, but that's all helicopters from the Abraham
>> Lincoln can do...let people fight for aid packets. Anything more is
>> prevented by the cost of the war in Iraq.
>>

As I heard on the news - the helicopters and American expertise are
getting food supplies to areas where it is most needed - areas that are
inaccessible to any other needs.

IMHO this is not a situation in which bashing each other does any good.
Everyone tries to do their part, some more than others. I am sure
that most of those that are involved in the actual relief effort are
just beginning to see the real extent of the damage, suffering and death.

<spinoza1111@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> What saves people after disasters are the United Nations

They're in pretty deep shit then...

<spinoza1111@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> The "choppers" aren't designed for the job. By design, they cannot
> carry enough for the people storming the craft and this creates on the
> ground a fight for relief which is won by men and stronger boys.

Good point... We should just let 'em starve since (according to you) we
can't do enough to help *everyone*...

> For this reason, the United Nations is setting up a true organization
> for nation rebuilding

Nawh, they're looking for ways to make a profit out of it... Maybe an "Oil
For Water" program?

> Its members will work 24/7 under stressful
> conditions and for this reason deserve the
> same or better quality of base as is in fact
> enjoyed by US soldiers in Halliburton-catered,
> air-conditioned mess halls.

Apparently you've never eaten military food... It's not great... At *best*,
it's typical institutional class food... Whether Halliburton has the
contract or not, it's still going to taste the same...

<snip-typical-leftwing-liberal-rant>

(1) No, we should not "let 'em starve" although this may be YOUR secret
desire. Instead we need to support a UN initiative so that insufficient
rations are not tossed to people who are injured and killed so that we
can feel good about ourselves.

The idea that they would "starve" is based on the fallacious belief
that the US donates "more" to other countries when in fact Nicholas
Kristof demonstrates in today's New York Times...that we pay out
foreign aid of all sorts at the lowest amount among the 20-odd leading
contributors, far behind the Netherlands and on a par with Greece.

(2) The "oil for food scandal" is a complete fantasy and when last
month the US tried to give this fantasy legs, it was so hooted down by
the rest of the world community that it had to eat crow and WITHDRAW
its calls for an investigation and censure of Kofi Annan.

(3) Apparently, you never made fag (oh excuse me flag) rank, for the
UN chiefs aren't exactly dogfaced PFCs, expected to chow down in a mess
hall. No, they are more like officers at and above fag (there I go
again) rank who do indeed check into five stars in Dubai.

spinoza1111@yahoo.com wrote:


>
> The "choppers" aren't designed for the job. By design, they cannot
> carry enough for the people storming the craft and this creates on the
> ground a fight for relief which is won by men and stronger boys.

so you would prefer that we (and many others) do nothing and let the
survivors starve, then go in and rebuild?
>
> This may, if filmed properly and under supervision by embedded
> journalists, create the IMAGE of relief. The REALITY, especially for
> women, girls and infants in the affected societies, will be the
> recreation of Dark Age conditions in which they will depend completely
> upon males for a new form of hunting and gathering.
They were dependent on those males before the wave.
>
> It may amuse US barbarians to do this from on high, like gods. But the
> lesson of Somalia is that relief-without-planning creates warlords.
but relief after a month creates more corpses.
>
> For this reason, the United Nations is setting up a true organization
> for nation rebuilding. Its members will work 24/7 under stressful
> conditions and for this reason deserve the same or better quality of
> base as is in fact enjoyed by US soldiers in Halliburton-catered,
> air-conditioned mess halls.

see above. Relief too late is not relief.
>
> US officers also stay in five-star hotels, and your argument is jejune
> and reminiscent of lower-middle class resentment which systematically
> bases itself not on facts and figures but on envy and images.
>
> The United States has never taken sole responsibility for relief of a
> major disaster and nation rebuilding. It HAS destroyed nations:
> Guatemala in 1954, Iran at the same time, Vietnam between 1960 and
> 1974, Chile in 1872 and Iraq in 2004.
>
> However, the United States has long thrown candy bars at starving
> children as a PR stunt, most recently in Iraq where the water supply
> had been destroyed by our bombing in April 2003 and the children were
> demanding, not a sugar buzz, but WATER.
>
> The US is averse to the plans and longterm committments of this sort of
> relief effort. The lesson of the earthquake in Bam (Iran) last year is
> that the committments are superseded by political tests consistently:
> promised relief to Iran was withheld when it was clear that Iran would
> not subordinate its policies to this relief.
>
> Whereas UN organizations are chartered and missioned to aid people and
> not kill them.
Tey just get there too late and are ineffective when they do arrive. See
Darfur.
>
>>
>>
>
> This is a long-term problem that is not even addressed by throwing food
> packets from helicopters, and that consists of coordinating several
> nations' policies. The American public has already forgotten about Bam,
> and it is unaware that partly as a consequence of the interaction of
> natural disaster (some of it including massive 1998 hurricanes which
> devastated Central America, caused by climate change, caused by
> American overuse of fossil fuels) the Third World has lost significant
> ground vis a vis the developed world...because apart from an initial PR
> effort to show we care (by pelting kids with insufficient food) the
> public then FORGETS.
So this and all other natural disasters are the fault of the US?
>
> Basically operant here is the barbaric American presumption that by
> definition, an UNARMED government official is not "ok" and in search of
> nothing more than a sinecure, and a warm 5-star place to shit and
> shower.
No, the difficulty is that they are ineffective, and while they are
setting up their 5 star accomodations, others are actually feeding
starving people.
>
> Whereas an ARMED "government official" such as a macho Marine is by
> definition some sort of hero...even if he tortures suspects and forces
> prisoners to committ sex acts.

Got proof oth this hapening in the affected areas? It probably won't
until the UN gets itself set up and operating.
>
> God forbid the USA should ever stand in need of UN assistance, whether
> to monitor our increasingly corrupted elections or to provide relief in
> case the Canary Islands fall into the sea, creating, according to some
> models, a massive tsunami headed for Washington and New York.

Doubtful if the UN would even notice a natural disaster in the us, much
less help.
>
> We'd be crying for assistance to beat the band...from the UN.
perhaps, not that we'd get it.

The pint made here is that the UN is not responding while many countries
ARE. Perhaps the aid is not enough but it is more than the UN is
supplying so far. You cannot appreciate your rebuilt country from a grave.

While the UN set up a planning meeting for the organizational comittee
to decide who was going to be on the investigative comittee to determine
who should be on the planning committee to determine where the actual
assesment team should go, other countries (Australia and Singapore
first, the US and many others after), were already rolling in not only
food and water, but the means to distribute it.

Not sure what the problem you have with the US, but you seem to miss the
point that action weeks or months later means very little to the
starving people RIGHT NOW.
>
>>
> http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/0...mi-update.html
>
>
>


--

The constitution promises freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM
religion. Think about it, It ain't that hard to figure out. If your
religion is none, then deal with it.

I strongly urge everyone reading this to check out WWW.anysoldier.com,
and support our troops with a letter, a package or a donation.

spinoza1111@yahoo.com wrote:
> dazed and confuzed wrote:
>
>>spinoza1111@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Furthermore, every Euro is now worth 1.35 times every dollar, and
>
> the
>
>>>value of contributions in Euros is increasing.
>>>
>>>Images of crew throwing insufficient supplies to people might make
>>>Americans feel good, but that's all helicopters from the Abraham
>>>Lincoln can do...let people fight for aid packets. Anything more is
>>>prevented by the cost of the war in Iraq.
>>>
>>>Warships are not designed to aid people in natural disasters but to
>>>create man-made disasters. We were unable to protect Rangers in
>
> Somalia
>
>>>or to prevent warlords from seizing food aid.
>>>
>>>What saves people after disasters are the United Nations and
>>>non-governmental relief organizations that don't engage in public
>>>relations stunts, such as throwing aid to people fighting for it
>
> from
>
>>>helicopters.
>>
>>Sure.....
>>
>>
>>
>> "More on 'The UNcredibles': WFP (World Food Program) has 'arrived'
>> in the capital with an 'assessment and coordination team.' The
>> following is no joke; no Diplomad attempt to be funny or clever:
>
> The
>
>> team has spent the day and will likely spend a few more setting
>
> up
>
>> their 'coordination and opcenter' at a local five-star hotel.
>
> And
>
>> their number one concern, even before phones, fax and copy
>
> machines?
>
>> Arranging for the hotel to provide 24hr catering service. USAID
>> folks already are cracking jokes about 'The UN Sheraton.'
>
> Meanwhile,
>
>> our military and civilians, working with the super Aussies,
>
> continue
>
>> to keep the C-130 air bridge of supplies flowing and the
>
> choppers
>
>> flying, and keep on saving lives -- and without 24hr catering
>> services from any five-star hotel... The contrast grows more
>
> stark
>
>> every minute."
>
>
> The "choppers" aren't designed for the job. By design, they cannot
> carry enough for the people storming the craft and this creates on the
> ground a fight for relief which is won by men and stronger boys.
>
> This may, if filmed properly and under supervision by embedded
> journalists, create the IMAGE of relief. The REALITY, especially for
> women, girls and infants in the affected societies, will be the
> recreation of Dark Age conditions in which they will depend completely
> upon males for a new form of hunting and gathering.
>
> It may amuse US barbarians to do this from on high, like gods. But the
> lesson of Somalia is that relief-without-planning creates warlords.
>
> For this reason, the United Nations is setting up a true organization
> for nation rebuilding. Its members will work 24/7 under stressful
> conditions and for this reason deserve the same or better quality of
> base as is in fact enjoyed by US soldiers in Halliburton-catered,
> air-conditioned mess halls.
>
> US officers also stay in five-star hotels, and your argument is jejune
> and reminiscent of lower-middle class resentment which systematically
> bases itself not on facts and figures but on envy and images.
>
> The United States has never taken sole responsibility for relief of a
> major disaster and nation rebuilding. It HAS destroyed nations:
> Guatemala in 1954, Iran at the same time, Vietnam between 1960 and
> 1974, Chile in 1872 and Iraq in 2004.
>
> However, the United States has long thrown candy bars at starving
> children as a PR stunt, most recently in Iraq where the water supply
> had been destroyed by our bombing in April 2003 and the children were
> demanding, not a sugar buzz, but WATER.
>
> The US is averse to the plans and longterm committments of this sort of
> relief effort. The lesson of the earthquake in Bam (Iran) last year is
> that the committments are superseded by political tests consistently:
> promised relief to Iran was withheld when it was clear that Iran would
> not subordinate its policies to this relief.
>
> Whereas UN organizations are chartered and missioned to aid people and
> not kill them.
>
>>
>> AND:
>>
>>
>> "In this part of the tsunami-wrecked Far Abroad, the UN is still
>> nowhere to be seen where it counts, i.e., feeding and helping
>> victims. The relief effort continues to be a US-Australia
>
> effort,
>
>> with Singapore now in and coordinating closely with the US and
>> Australia. Other countries are also signing up to be part of the
>> US-Australia effort. Nobody wants to be 'coordinated' by the UN.
>
> The
>
>> local UN reps are getting desperate. They're calling for yet
>
> another
>
>> meeting this afternoon; they've flown in more UN big shots to
>> lecture us all on 'coordination' and the need to work together,
>> i.e., let the UN take credit. With Kofi about to arrive for a
>
> big
>
>> conference, the UNocrats are scrambling to show something,
>
> anything
>
>> as a UN accomplishment. Don't be surprised if they claim that
>
> the
>
>> USS Abraham Lincoln is under UN control and that President
>
> Lincoln
>
>> was a strong supporter of the UN."
>>
>
> This is a long-term problem that is not even addressed by throwing food
> packets from helicopters, and that consists of coordinating several
> nations' policies. The American public has already forgotten about Bam,
> and it is unaware that partly as a consequence of the interaction of
> natural disaster (some of it including massive 1998 hurricanes which
> devastated Central America, caused by climate change, caused by
> American overuse of fossil fuels) the Third World has lost significant
> ground vis a vis the developed world...because apart from an initial PR
> effort to show we care (by pelting kids with insufficient food) the
> public then FORGETS.
>
> Basically operant here is the barbaric American presumption that by
> definition, an UNARMED government official is not "ok" and in search of
> nothing more than a sinecure, and a warm 5-star place to shit and
> shower.
>
> Whereas an ARMED "government official" such as a macho Marine is by
> definition some sort of hero...even if he tortures suspects and forces
> prisoners to committ sex acts.
>
> God forbid the USA should ever stand in need of UN assistance, whether
> to monitor our increasingly corrupted elections or to provide relief in
> case the Canary Islands fall into the sea, creating, according to some
> models, a massive tsunami headed for Washington and New York.
>
> We'd be crying for assistance to beat the band...from the UN.
>
>>
> http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/0...mi-update.html
>
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>The constitution promises freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM
>>religion. Think about it, It ain't that hard to figure out. If your
>>religion is none, then deal with it.
>>
>
> CUE right wing looney tunes theme...
>
>>I strongly urge everyone reading this to check out
>
> WWW.anysoldier.com,
>
>>and support our troops with a letter, a package or a donation.
>
>
And somehow, the US will be the root cause of now the children being
sold into slavery, probably using the helicopters and warships for yet
another sinister plot.

s/their/there/g

Fumble fingers strikes again...

"Froggy" <hub666@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1104843300.555722.20450@z14g2000cwz.googlegro ups.com...
> Scott,
>
> Could you just leave politics aside for a while?
>
> Just let people do what they can to help, be it via the UN, USAID or
> NGOs.

I am not stopping anyone from doing anything.

Since day one you all in Europe have done nothing except shit all over
America, who is doing more than everyone else combined, including and
especially the UN and Europe.

This isn't a wildass theory.

The sex trade EXISTS in its present form because countries like
Thailand have been deindustrialized by the West, acting through world
financial institutions.

I say "deindustrialized" because prior to the modern era, south Asia
was the most highly populated and most advanced economic region on
earth for thousands of years, and part of this was home manufacture at
levels advanced for the time, and home-controlled trade dominated not
by Europeans but by Asians.

With the result that young girls and boys in Thailand have limited
economic opportunities and are driven into a sex trade that Thailand's
traditionally pro-west government has admitted to be a major component
of GDP.

The IMF and World Bank, under US domination, prevent underdeveloped
countries from making multi-year, long term investments in industry or
social welfare as a condition for these countries' participation at all
in international credit markets.

This drives people into instant markets satisfying quick demand, of
which the sex trade is one.

The sex trade combines with traditional male-dominated folkways to
completely seal off girls from education and careers in which they
might endanger US domination by constructing dams, power stations,
universities or tsunami warning systems.