Back Inflation and GO Diving

In article <1188301226.248010.111150@50g2000hsm.googlegroups. com>,
recscuba_google@huntzinger.com says...

> Plus, it would be nice if it could do double duty on the surface as a
> 'life jacket' for those instances where the surface float doesn't go
> according to plan (see the current month's issue of Alert Diver for an
> example), or at least not be a bad face-dunker. Particuarly when
> using rental AL80's at some remote resort because they don't have any
> Steels.

The bad "face dunkers" are "tech" back inflation BC's that have a
ridiculous amount of lift in a wing design that mimics the classic cave
diving wing. The classic cave diving wing is narrow at the top and wide
at the bottom and is perfect with double steel tanks. It provides 45-55
lbs of lift. It allows a diver to be balanced in any position. Some of
the tech BC's have 60, 80 or even 100 lbs of lift - ridiculous with any
tanks, and a design which puts too much of the lift in the wrong place.

Most of the time the face down problem comes from having too much weight
and putting too much gas into a poorly designed wing. The diver feels
like he's being pushed forward on the surface and starts adding weight
to try to compensate, but then has to put more gas in the wing, making
the problem worse. I've helped more than a few people through this by
removing weight and showing them that they don't need to fill the wing.

I use a backplate, and have 4 different wings (Halcyon and Oxycheq) that
are designed specifically for the tank configurations I use. I don't
remember who makes them, but I have seen back inflation BC's that are
designed well for single tank diving (the one that ESG used comes to
mind), and there are other types that are designed specifically and work
well for the diving that most people do. It simply boils down to using
the right tool for the job. Compromises are compromises.

al

On Aug 27, 7:03 am, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"
<Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote:
> <hierophantf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > You are grossly overweighted in a wet suit with 16 lbs ? You don't
> > mention if this is salt or fresh water but since you are "pulling
> > weeds', I'm assuming it's fresh water.

> He was overweighting himself to work on the bottom.
> He's a skinny little runt.

Yea, I guess he is. I'm jealous.

On Aug 27, 8:14 pm, "Adam Helberg" <sendspamh...@yahee.com> wrote:
> "ben bradlee" <No...@Way.Bite.Me> wrote in message
>
> news:MfmdnTe4-ICvV0zbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@centurytel.net...
>
> > There was a discussion a while back on wing type and back inflation types of
> > buoyancy compensators. Here is something new.
>
> > Yesterday I used a wetsuit, BP/W, and 16# of lead. The dive plan was to swim a few
> > hundred yards and sit on the bottom and pull weeds. Sixteen pounds of lead puts me
> > in the grossly overweighted (GO) category. The first thing I noticed - besides
> > that it takes a whole crapper full of air to lift the extra 10 to 12 pounds of
> > weight - is that it was not possible to sit upright on the bottom of the lake with
> > the bladder capacity at neutral buoyancy. The wing pushed my head down so as to be
> > parallel with the earth. On the surface it was the same. All this leads me to
> > conclude that one could drown rather easily with this type of equipment given the
> > right circumstances.

> Sounds like you were overweighted. If you did this to work on the bottom then you
> should just deflate the BC and you can walk around the bottom. You can also adjust
> trim by moving the weight farther back toward the wing.
> Adam

He doesn't mention the type of BC he is using, so I'm not sure how you
are arriving at your conclusion that he was overweighted and needed to
move the weight farther back. There are back-inflation BC's (like
the one I have) that have pockets for weights. You don't move the
weights anywhere in that case. They stay put in the pocket. I
suppose if you wanted to, you could add a weightbelt or a tank weight
if you felt that might help adjust your trim. I've never had to do
that. Furthermore, if he felt he couldn't sit upright at "neutral",
and he was overweighted, then why not just let some more air out ? I
mean if you let all the air out and you're that much overweighted,
then eventually your butt is gonna be firmly planted on the bottom.
With no air in the wings, there should be no reason why you couldn't
sit upright.

> You are grossly overweighted in a wet suit with 16 lbs ? You don't
> mention if this is salt or fresh water but since you are "pulling
> weeds', I'm assuming it's fresh water.

I would be grossly overweighted with 16 lbs of lead when wearing my wetsuit
too, and I'm not even close to being a skinny runt. I'm quite buoyant. Under
normal conditions, my body's positive buoyancy is offset by my neutral to
slightly negative (when empty) tanks, other equipment and my 6 lb stainless
steel plate. With my 16 mil wetsuit, I add 4 lbs of lead for near perfect
trim and weighting. With 16 lbs, I'd be 12 lbs overweight, which is pretty
gross in my opinion.

Lee

"-hh" <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote in message
news:1188301226.248010.111150@50g2000hsm.googlegro ups.com...
> "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> If you want a lifejacket, get one.
>
> Thats what the old horsecollars were
>
>
>> The BC or BP/W that holds you, correctly, horizontal, while diving, is
>> the
>> superior design.
>
>
> This assumes that one's definition of "correct" is that it equals
> horizontal.
>
>
> Particularly for UW photo, my definition of correct is that the BC
> does not impede me from attaining any orientation while diving.

So it's your BC that does that?

And not your skill as a diver?

Interesting.

> Plus, it would be nice if it could do double duty on the surface as a
> 'life jacket' for those instances where the surface float doesn't go
> according to plan (see the current month's issue of Alert Diver for an
> example), or at least not be a bad face-dunker. Particuarly when
> using rental AL80's at some remote resort because they don't have any
> Steels.

Or you could stick with a horse collar set-up.

I use diving gear to dive.

>
>
> -hh
>
>

On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:27:36 GMT, Al Wells <al.wells@gmail.com> wrote
in rec.scuba:

>In article <1188301226.248010.111150@50g2000hsm.googlegroups. com>,
>recscuba_google@huntzinger.com says...
>
>> Plus, it would be nice if it could do double duty on the surface as a
>> 'life jacket' for those instances where the surface float doesn't go
>> according to plan (see the current month's issue of Alert Diver for an
>> example), or at least not be a bad face-dunker. Particuarly when
>> using rental AL80's at some remote resort because they don't have any
>> Steels.
>
>The bad "face dunkers" are "tech" back inflation BC's that have a
>ridiculous amount of lift in a wing design that mimics the classic cave
>diving wing. The classic cave diving wing is narrow at the top and wide
>at the bottom and is perfect with double steel tanks. It provides 45-55
>lbs of lift. It allows a diver to be balanced in any position. Some of
>the tech BC's have 60, 80 or even 100 lbs of lift - ridiculous with any
>tanks, and a design which puts too much of the lift in the wrong place.

Hmmm, I have a Ranger with 55 pounds of lift. I seem to remember
having that "pushing my face forward" feeling when I first started
diving and it was probably with that BC. But, I was grossly
overweighted back then and now never experience that feeling.

>
>Most of the time the face down problem comes from having too much weight
>and putting too much gas into a poorly designed wing. The diver feels
>like he's being pushed forward on the surface and starts adding weight
>to try to compensate, but then has to put more gas in the wing, making
>the problem worse. I've helped more than a few people through this by
>removing weight and showing them that they don't need to fill the wing.

Yes. I avoid filling my BC whenever possible.
>
>I use a backplate, and have 4 different wings (Halcyon and Oxycheq) that
>are designed specifically for the tank configurations I use. I don't
>remember who makes them, but I have seen back inflation BC's that are
>designed well for single tank diving (the one that ESG used comes to
>mind), and there are other types that are designed specifically and work
>well for the diving that most people do. It simply boils down to using
>the right tool for the job. Compromises are compromises.
>
I've never used my Ranger for doubles but I'm sure it wouldn't compare
to a back plate and wing. But, I think it works wonderfully for
single tanks, especially the larger steel tanks.

"John Hanson" wrote

> Hmmm, I have a Ranger with 55 pounds of lift. I seem to remember
> having that "pushing my face forward" feeling when I first started
> diving and it was probably with that BC. But, I was grossly
> overweighted back then and now never experience that feeling.

We'll have to hook up soon and get you to try a BP&W.

I still have an old ALBP, STA and 27# Pioneer.

Curtis

On Aug 29, 7:27 pm, "Curtis" <cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com> wrote:
> "John Hanson" wrote
>
> > Hmmm, I have a Ranger with 55 pounds of lift. I seem to remember
> > having that "pushing my face forward" feeling when I first started
> > diving and it was probably with that BC. But, I was grossly
> > overweighted back then and now never experience that feeling.
>
> We'll have to hook up soon and get you to try a BP&W.
>
> I still have an old ALBP, STA and 27# Pioneer.

Hanson seems like wonderful brainwash material. You might not even
have to break out the spinning pocket watch.

John Hanson wrote

> Hmmm, I have a Ranger with 55 pounds of lift. I seem to remember
> having that "pushing my face forward" feeling when I first started
> diving and it was probably with that BC. But, I was grossly
> overweighted back then and now never experience that feeling.

snip

> I've never used my Ranger for doubles but I'm sure it wouldn't compare
> to a back plate and wing. But, I think it works wonderfully for
> single tanks, especially the larger steel tanks.

I've seen Rangers, but not used one. It looked like a reasonably good BC to
me. On the other hand, 55 lbs. of lift is quite a bit more than most people
would need for a single tank. I have a 55 lb Oxycheq for my twinset, but use
a much smaller wing for my single tank diving. Most often, I use an 18 lb
lift Halcyon wing that's no longer made. I forget what the bigger one I have
is except that it's bigger than the 18, and a lot smaller than the 55.

Lee

Curtis wrote

> We'll have to hook up soon and get you to try a BP&W.

> I still have an old ALBP, STA and 27# Pioneer.

That's what my other wing is. My 27 lb Pioneer is attached to a stainless
backplate and STA. You guys are welcome to give it a try if you "hook up"
down here.

Lee