PADI Training vs.. others

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:YrDPf.35$C7.1@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> "Charlie Hammond" wrote
>
>>>... You and I both know that there are plenty of divers around whose
>>>cards
>>> say they are qualified to dive independently, who are not.
>
>> Perhaps we do know that -- but we also know that there are relatively few
>> recreational diving accidents.
>
> No, you don't. You know that there are relatively few diving accidents
> reported and tracked. There's a huge difference.

I doubt there's a huge difference. In countries like the U.S., where
practically every death gets investigated, I'm pretty sure that DAN's record
is near complete. There may be a few missed cases of DCS or minor
barotrauma, but any case so mild as to escape attention probably doesn't
deserve attention and is more than counterbalanced by falsely attributed
"diving accidents" that are really just heart attacks at the wrong place or
time, or "bends" that are really just sore muscles.

I'm pretty sure that the same standards would hold true for Canada and
Western Europe and Japan and Australia. Obviously the standards of
reporting vary in third-world countries, but the more professional dive ops
will make the necessary reports no matter where they're located. For
instance, I doubt Ocean Frontiers in Grand Cayman or Capt. Don's Habitat in
Bonaire would cover up any dive-related accidents. In any case, the valid
statistics from first-world countries can be extrapolated to the third-world
since most of the divers were trained in first-world countries. It might be
interesting to see the number of dive accidents attributable to third-world
dive instruction, but as Charlie pointed out, the number of accidents, at
least those attributable to first-world dive instruction, is "relatively
few".

Lee Bell wrote:
> Are you still sure there aren't many diving accidents?

IMHO you have quite a broad definition for accident. By your definition
a coral ear is a diving accident.

By that definition I'm a walking disaster even above ground, since I
have multiple accidents each day (my kids bump into me while playing, I
hit my toe into a chair leg, a soap slipped from my hand in the shower...)

--
The suespammers.org mail server is located in California; do not send
unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail to my
suespammers.org address. It's my life: http://www.laitinen.org/blog/

In article

I appreciate all the replies to my original posting here.

We can quibble all we want and I realize that there are good divers of
all schools, but when I originally got my feet wet I heard lots of
people critical of PADI ("pay and dive instantly"). To reiterate my
original point, the questions in the PADI Advanced Open Water manual
were so moronic that it is my opinion that PADI wants to make it a
virtual certainty that you pass the written test. I think that they
have very cleverly made the text itself to be acceptable in content but
then to make the "questions" quite literally a "no brainer".


I now see why. and Lee hit it right on the head when he said " have,
and have always had, a problem with any agency that puts sales above
safety and, in my opinion, PADI corporate has done just that".

I have decided that I will avoid any PADI courses if at all possible.
In fact I will be traveling in about 10 days and though it's difficult
have weeded out several PADI facilities.

Sy





<aNsPf.2794$s8.1798@bignews7.bellsouth.net>, Lee Bell
<pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> "Dan Bracuk" wrote
>
> > :In other words, it's a quick and certain way to put a card in the hands
> > of a
> > :diver. That's a useful tool for you. It's a problem for the
> > recreational
> > :diving industry.
>
> > And what problem would that be?
>
> In his case, where there's planned follow up for a program only intended to
> provide the card required to proceed, there's no problem.
>
> When there is no assurance that there will be further training, just getting
> a card that says you're certified is not enough to ensure you are safe. You
> and I both know that there are plenty of divers around whose cards say they
> are qualified to dive independently, who are not.
>
> I have, and have always had, a problem with any agency that puts sales above
> safety and, in my opinion, PADI corporate has done just that. YMMV.
>
> Lee
>
>

--
Please post and reply to sytech@yahoo.com

But as a diver, not a student, there's a different perspective. If you
avoid PADI, who do you dive with? Now you're not taking classes, but in
those parts of the world where you dive with a group led by a dive
master, what do you know about the DM? Might be very good, might be a
tour guide. At least with PADI you have someone with a certain level of
training. Part of being a PADI dive center is that you hire only PADi
certified staff, so you've got someone who made it thorugh DM.

As for guaranteeing you make it through, I saw a couple of divers wash
out in my PADI OW class and one in my rescue diver.



sytech@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article
>
> I appreciate all the replies to my original posting here.
>
> We can quibble all we want and I realize that there are good divers of
> all schools, but when I originally got my feet wet I heard lots of
> people critical of PADI ("pay and dive instantly"). To reiterate my
> original point, the questions in the PADI Advanced Open Water manual
> were so moronic that it is my opinion that PADI wants to make it a
> virtual certainty that you pass the written test. I think that they
> have very cleverly made the text itself to be acceptable in content but
> then to make the "questions" quite literally a "no brainer".
>
>
> I now see why. and Lee hit it right on the head when he said " have,
> and have always had, a problem with any agency that puts sales above
> safety and, in my opinion, PADI corporate has done just that".
>
> I have decided that I will avoid any PADI courses if at all possible.
> In fact I will be traveling in about 10 days and though it's difficult
> have weeded out several PADI facilities.
>
> Sy
>
>
>
>
>
> <aNsPf.2794$s8.1798@bignews7.bellsouth.net>, Lee Bell
> <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
>>"Dan Bracuk" wrote
>>
>>
>>>:In other words, it's a quick and certain way to put a card in the hands
>>>of a
>>>:diver. That's a useful tool for you. It's a problem for the
>>>recreational
>>>:diving industry.
>>
>>>And what problem would that be?
>>
>>In his case, where there's planned follow up for a program only intended to
>>provide the card required to proceed, there's no problem.
>>
>>When there is no assurance that there will be further training, just getting
>>a card that says you're certified is not enough to ensure you are safe. You
>>and I both know that there are plenty of divers around whose cards say they
>>are qualified to dive independently, who are not.
>>
>>I have, and have always had, a problem with any agency that puts sales above
>>safety and, in my opinion, PADI corporate has done just that. YMMV.
>>
>>Lee
>>
>>
>
>

Greg Mossman wrote:

>>> we also know that there are relatively few
>>>recreational diving accidents.
>>
>>No, you don't. You know that there are relatively few diving accidents
>>reported and tracked. There's a huge difference.
>
>
> I doubt there's a huge difference.

There may not be a big numerical difference, but I'm guessing Lee was referring to
what we actually know. We know about the relatively few accidents that are reported,
but that doesn't necessarily mean that we know how many accidents there are.


> In countries like the U.S., where
> practically every death gets investigated, I'm pretty sure that DAN's record
> is near complete.

When Rob Svensson died while diving in February 2001 his death was thoroughly
investigated. Please let me know if you find it listed in the DAN reports.

> There may be a few missed cases of DCS or minor
> barotrauma, but any case so mild as to escape attention probably doesn't
> deserve attention

The problem is that many minor incidents are only a little bit of luck away from
being serious incidents. Are thousands of drunk drivers making it home without mishap
a problem, or is DWI only a problem when the driver causes an accident? We can be
reasonably sure that the drunks who made it home weren't reported. I expect most of
the people here will enjoy this article which describes a serious mishap that wasn't
reported to DAN or PADI (or any other agency), and which only ended without a corpse
through extreme good luck and a knowledgeable rescuer:
http://www.stationr.org/rescues/nickajk.htm
I realize that even the minimal training of a PADI weekend-wonder course probably
warned about this particular type of danger; it's just a good example of a close call
that never entered the statistics.



--
Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

In article <080320062125458644%sytech@yahoo.com>, sytech@yahoo.com ()
wrote:

> I have decided that I will avoid any PADI courses if at all possible.
> In fact I will be traveling in about 10 days and though it's difficult
> have weeded out several PADI facilities.

I think that is a poor decision.......you have discovered a possible
weakness in a particular procedure, you have now decided that ALL padi
outlets are to be avoided like the plague, that shows a very real weakness
in your ability to be even handed and realistic and
objective..........what you are doing is branding every padi outlet and
instructor as inferior when they are not. Be sure to let us all know when
you become an instructor and with which agency.

www.seatreker.com
Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK

Dan Bracuk wrote:
> "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
> :All we can tell, as frequent recreational divers, is how many people we see
> :on the boats that we recognize as incompetent. The number is way too high.
>
> I dive for fun, not to assess the other people on the boat.


Same here, but some of it is so obvious that it is hard not to notice,
even when we're not trying to look for it...its hard not to have a
general peripheral awareness of your environment.


-hh

Lee Bell wrote:
> "Matthias Voss" wrote
>
>
>>Assimilating an approach to accident prevention from civil engineering/
>>traffic accident research (which I had done several years ago):
>
>
>>You observe near accident events, try to classify the causes, and relate
>>them statistically to accidents really happening. Works.
>
>
> Sure does, but not if you start with the assumption that, because there's no
> accident report, there is no danger.

That is the difference between a denial culture and an open
to discussion one.

Matthias

In article <QGPPf.13228$4%1.5698@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com>,
Steve <SPAMTRAPglawackus@hvc.rr.com> writes:
...
> The problem is that many minor incidents are only a little bit of luck
> away from being serious incidents. ...

How is this a "problem"? If it is true (I agree that it probably is)
then it shows that the current level of training produces divers with
the skills and knowledge to prevent a minor incident from becoming
serious. That is a good thing.


--
Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA
(hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

"Charlie Hammond" wrote

> How is this a "problem"? If it is true (I agree that it probably is)
> then it shows that the current level of training produces divers with
> the skills and knowledge to prevent a minor incident from becoming
> serious. That is a good thing.

That's a bit like saying that it's no problem if my computer crashes twice a
day because, so far, it's only happened just after I backed up my data.

Lee