PADI Training vs.. others

I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.

The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.

Something like this:

"Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)

I'm really not exaggerating much at all.


I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
the course. As a result as I continue my training I will do all that I
can to avoid PADI. I realize that the expertise of the diving
instructor is what's most important but I have no faith in an
organization which allows such dumb and self evident questions in their
training manual. My initial YMCA Certification (written part) was a
hundred times more demanding than the PADI Advanced Cert..

Any comments will be appreciated.

Sy

--
Please post and reply to sytech@yahoo.com

sytech@yahoo.com wrote:
> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.
>
> The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
> have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
> text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
> have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
> multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.
>
> Something like this:
>
> "Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)
>
> I'm really not exaggerating much at all.
>
>
> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
> the course. As a result as I continue my training I will do all that I
> can to avoid PADI. I realize that the expertise of the diving
> instructor is what's most important but I have no faith in an
> organization which allows such dumb and self evident questions in their
> training manual. My initial YMCA Certification (written part) was a
> hundred times more demanding than the PADI Advanced Cert..
>
> Any comments will be appreciated.
>
> Sy
>

There is some very basic "book" knowledge important to entry
level courses, but not much. Mostly, it's skill development.

As you get further into diving, you may find an interest in
algorithm development, history, archeology, diving physics and
physiology, gas blending, equipment design, cave mapping or any
of the other hundreds of subjects we love to argue about here
(or used to, anyway) and which require the kind of knowledge
that can be assessed with a written exam.

Meanwhile, work on developing yer in-water skills - that's how
other, experienced divers will rank you as a good or bad diver.

Leave the essays to those that don't dive much.

m

On 2006-03-07 14:35:55 +1300, <sytech@yahoo.com> said:

>
> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.
> The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
> have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
> text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
> have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
> multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.
> Something like this:
>
> "Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)
>
> I'm really not exaggerating much at all.
>
>
> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
> the course. As a result as I continue my training I will do all that I
> can to avoid PADI. I realize that the expertise of the diving
> instructor is what's most important but I have no faith in an
> organization which allows such dumb and self evident questions in their
> training manual. My initial YMCA Certification (written part) was a
> hundred times more demanding than the PADI Advanced Cert..
>
> Any comments will be appreciated.
>
> Sy

I would have to say that the best thing to do is to have a talk with
the instructor who would be training you rather than going by the
reputation of the training agency as a whole.

PADI do have a reputation for wanting everyone who takes a course to
pass, but the quality of a course is more dependant on the instructor
than anything else. I am a PADI instructor, but I have certs from a
variety of agencies and mainly keep the PADI rating as it is useful for
work (I am a marine biologist and I occasionally train scientific
divers, and the PADI courses are useful for getting the basic certs up
to the point that non-PADI scientific training can begin).

I have met a lot of very good PADI instructors as well as some quite
dodgy ones, but the same applies to all of the other major agencies
(SSI, BSAC, SAA etc.). You sound like you should be able to get a feel
for how an instructor will be, so go from there. You might find that a
course from a more technical agency is more what you are after as the
academic portions of those courses will be more in depth than a PADI
course...

Just some thoughts...

Dan L.

Dan L wrote:
> On 2006-03-07 14:35:55 +1300, <sytech@yahoo.com> said:
>
>>
>> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
>> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.
>> The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
>> have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
>> text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
>> have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
>> multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.
>> Something like this:
>>
>> "Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)
>>
>> I'm really not exaggerating much at all.
>>
>>
>> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
>> the course. As a result as I continue my training I will do all that I
>> can to avoid PADI. I realize that the expertise of the diving
>> instructor is what's most important but I have no faith in an
>> organization which allows such dumb and self evident questions in their
>> training manual. My initial YMCA Certification (written part) was a
>> hundred times more demanding than the PADI Advanced Cert..
>>
>> Any comments will be appreciated.
>>
>> Sy
>
>
> I would have to say that the best thing to do is to have a talk with the
> instructor who would be training you rather than going by the reputation
> of the training agency as a whole.
>
> PADI do have a reputation for wanting everyone who takes a course to
> pass, but the quality of a course is more dependant on the instructor
> than anything else. I am a PADI instructor, but I have certs from a
> variety of agencies and mainly keep the PADI rating as it is useful for
> work (I am a marine biologist and I occasionally train scientific
> divers, and the PADI courses are useful for getting the basic certs up
> to the point that non-PADI scientific training can begin).
>
> I have met a lot of very good PADI instructors as well as some quite
> dodgy ones, but the same applies to all of the other major agencies
> (SSI, BSAC, SAA etc.). You sound like you should be able to get a feel
> for how an instructor will be, so go from there. You might find that a
> course from a more technical agency is more what you are after as the
> academic portions of those courses will be more in depth than a PADI
> course...
>
> Just some thoughts...
>
> Dan L.
>
The whole point of a training certification is to provide a framework
under which *new* divers can confidently learn to be safe. If the
instructor certification is insufficient assurance of basic competance
in this regard, then the certificate is worse than useless, it is
fraudulent.

By definition, a new diver is incapable of properly assesing an
individual instructor.

sytech@yahoo.com wrote:
> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.
>
> The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
> have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
> text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
> have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
> multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.
>
> Something like this:
>
> "Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)
>
> I'm really not exaggerating much at all.

> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
> the course.

It's not limited to PADI. I did not even START learning about diving
until I have received my Master Diver cert from PADI (1990) and
started to learn from dive masters and others who DIVE.

I immediately got into a flamewar with THREE dive instructors
in rec.scuba: Dave Waller, who taught his students to DUMP
their BCD empty before kicking themself to ascend to surface.
and Nick SImicich who had NO IDEA about proper weighting
and neutral buoyancy; and a third instructor Dave, who
argued with me about BUOYANCY control -- and soon earned
themselves the name of "Truimphrate of Twits". Yup, these
were all INSTRUCTORS, NAUI, PADI, SSI, and some handicap
association (perhaps for mentally handicapped <G>).

GOOD diving practice is a gradual learning process. No amount
of certification will be a substitute. Mike Gray has some wise
word to say to you on that.


Take Lee Bell -- who bragged about his diving experience and
diving knowledge, yet don't know the first thing about DIVE
PHYSICS or DIVE PHYSIOLOGY to have argued for years
that he could maintain NEUTRAL buoyancy throughout an
entire dive by "shifting his breathing pattern alone" -- and used
the fallacious argument that he used to dive WITHOUT a
BCD -- not realizing he was NEVER neutrally buoyant
during an entire dive -- both a couple of lbs to heavy (at
the beginning) AND a couple of lbs too light (at the end)
to compensate by constant MOTION rather than being
able to stay motionless and remain NEUTRAL.

Lee is so obtuse about these basic PRINCIPLES of Gas
Laws and physiology that he earned such ridicule from
those in the know several years ago, and he is STILL
arguing in rec.scuba about his ability to be neutral by
changing his breathing pattern alone -- completely
obvlious to the fact that there is a 5-6 lb DIFFERENTIAL
in the air inside a talk (between full and empty), so that
it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to compensate for that
amount of change through breathing alone.

That kind of ignorance in DIVING skill AND theory, earned
Lee Bell the coveted acolades from extremely knowledgeable
instructors, and instructor trainers:

Discussant H

Lee,
You compensate for 6 or so lbs in buoyancy change by shifting your
breathing pattern???? That would require constant, close to 3 liters
exhale at the end of your dive ) What is the tidal volume of your
lungs - 15 liters?))

Discussant D.

Lee once again went for a Nobel Prize in physics by attempting to
prove a range of immutable laws wrong

Discussant E.

Rather than bastardizing the gas laws, and continuing your
intellectual strip-tease show, may I suggest that you adhere
instead to Denis Healey's First Law of Holes: "When you find
yourself in one, stop digging!"

> Any comments will be appreciated.
>
> Sy

Don't blame it just on PADI. There are as many excellent PADI
instructors as there are excellent instructors in other training
agencies.

Newsgroups is a very dangerous place to learn about DIVING
skills, especially rec.scuba. You have too many bullshitters
like Lee Bell around who prides in NOT LISTENING but
keep ARGUING about his errors. He has attracted a gang
of equally ignorant creatures to post as a GANG in
discrupting SCUBA discussions.

Lee's latest confession (a few days ago):

Lee> I've never been much of a spectator. If I can't do
Lee> it myself, I'm not particularly interested in watching,
Lee> or hearing, about others that can.

which brought my observation:

RF> That pretty much is a TRUE CONFESSION of WHY Lee Bell is so
RF> ignorant about so many scuba facts, priniciples, and physical
RF> and scientific Laws!


Lee Bell and is stooges (Magilla, Bob Crownfield, Alan Street) who
NEVER have anything to post in rec.scuba.locations have been
flaming me in that group for weeks, on the buoyancy issue and
other noise issues Lee Bell drummed up.

> Any comments will be appreciated

Beware of anything DIVING related that come out of the mouth of
Lee Bell. As for his stooges, they never talk about scuba --
as far as I could tell. If you like to bull shit, Lee (aka DING
DONG)
is your man!

-- Bob. BTW, I don't read rec.scuba anymore, only
rec.scuba.locations.

Dillon Pyron wrote:
> Thus spake mike gray <omgray@worldnet.att.net> :
>
> >sytech@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> I received my YMCA Open Water Cert. about 6 years ago and recently
> >> received my Advanced Open Water Cert. through PADI.
> >>
> >> The latter dive instructor was very knowledgeable and skilled but I
> >> have to say that I was really put off by the PADI Training Manual. The
> >> text was adequate but the questions at the end of the chapters could
> >> have been answered by children. The questions were very simple
> >> multiple choice or "yes" or "no" answers.
> >>
> >> Something like this:
> >>
> >> "Lung expansion injuries are good for you" (yes) (no)
> >>
> >> I'm really not exaggerating much at all.
> >>
> >>
> >> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
> >> the course. As a result as I continue my training I will do all that I
> >> can to avoid PADI. I realize that the expertise of the diving
> >> instructor is what's most important but I have no faith in an
> >> organization which allows such dumb and self evident questions in their
> >> training manual. My initial YMCA Certification (written part) was a
> >> hundred times more demanding than the PADI Advanced Cert..
> >>
> >> Any comments will be appreciated.
> >>
> >> Sy
This part is Mike Gray's words of wisdom =================
> >
> >There is some very basic "book" knowledge important to entry
> >level courses, but not much. Mostly, it's skill development.
> >
> >As you get further into diving, you may find an interest in
> >algorithm development, history, archeology, diving physics and
> >physiology, gas blending, equipment design, cave mapping or any
> >of the other hundreds of subjects we love to argue about here
> >(or used to, anyway) and which require the kind of knowledge
> >that can be assessed with a written exam.
> >
> >Meanwhile, work on developing yer in-water skills - that's how
> >other, experienced divers will rank you as a good or bad diver.
===== end excerpt of Mike Gray's words of wisdom

>
> In point of fact, skills development is what AOW is about. You should
> already have the basic knowledge, it's about stepping up a notch.
> --
> dillon

Not always, and that's the complaint of sytech and others -- except
they put to much emphasis on BAD PADI instructors and instruction.

I am a professional statistician. For the sake of simple arithmetic,
if there are 10 times as many PADI instructors and students than
some other agency, say SSI, then even if all things are being
equal and the same, there will be 10 times as many BAD PADI
instructors than bad SSI instructors -- by the merely fact of
PROPORTIONS or per capita.

Cozumel is THE place to observe all kinds of REALISM in
recreational diving. I've met more divers from different states
of the USA, more divers from different countries in the world,
than the next 10 most popular world class dive locations I've
been (also because of the PROPORTION factor).

Here's a post I made in 2003 recalling an incidence in AOW
Training -- the instructor AND student were diving from the
same "wooden slow boat" I dived from, hence I have plenty
of time to observe and hear what was going on.

http://tinyurl.com/ettma

THe anecdotal account was:

RF> I've seen some PADI certified divers who are not "qualified" to
RF> dive at ANY depth. I eye-witnessed a PADI AOW diver
in-training
RF> on a boat dive in Cozumel, by an instructor from Texas (her dive
RF> shop instructor, I presume). The student hung on an arm of the
RF> instructor the ENTIRE time, came back to the boat with the worst
RF> case of mask squeeze I've ever seen -- black all around her eyes.
RF> She PASSED her AOW cert, of course.

That was in the early 1990s. It was on a Discover shop boat (Vikingo)
that took about 2 hours to get from downtown to Palancar. There
was plenty of space on the boat to walk around, chat with other divers
etc. (not much of that in fast 6-pak boats these days). Said
instructor
had brought OTHER groups of students to certify in Cozumel before.

But that was the first case of an AOW diver who should NOT have
been certified to dive at ANY depth at ANY place!

There are many DIVERS who dive in Cozumel who are almost as bad
as said AOW student -- and those were trained by OTHER agencies,
and trained in Germany, Japan, Italy, France, you name it ...

For example, when I was diving there for a couple days with Greg
Mossman and Sanna, at the Mardi Gras, these were the assortment
of divers on my boat:

(feb 22: one from Holland with Instuctor, one from Switzerland)
(feb 23: couple from Las Vegas with their Cancun DM)
(feb 24: two Californian and assorted other divers)
(feb 25: two Californian and assorted other divers}
(feb 26: one Italian, two Mexican, and 3 Japanese)
(feb 27: two Chicagoans, 1 Israeli, and 1 unknown)

No obvious incompetent on this trip. But I've seen Italian
divers knocking a huge piece of the ceiling of the Cathedral in
Punta Sur and other divers who panicked. I even rescued a
few strangers who had no buoyancy control and were heading
straightdown below 120 fsw and continuing when the DM was
too far to grab them by the tank and pull them up! Those
stories are in the archives too.

In short, there are MANY incompetent divers who got certified,
from ALL agencies. Some of the BEST DMs in Cozumel, who
taught me some of my diving skills (after I already had my
PADI Master Diver cert) were PADI Instructors! It's important
to keep in mind not to sterotype anyone or any agency when
it comes to scuba certification and dive skills.

-- Bob. PADI trained; But mostly self-taught, and informally
taught by experienced divers; SSI rubber-stamped
Master Diver when my PADI card was lost in my stolen
luggage.

In article <vmjr021iv7gjhuqg95ag9lg5qvjnum81i9@4ax.com>,
Dillon Pyron <dmpyronINVALID@austin.rr.com> writes:


>Charlie, the specific question had to do with AOW. I agree entirely
>that OW students MUST read and understand the manual. But for AOW,
>most of the written stuff is fluff. I hate teaching much of the AOW
>manual. There are things like search patterns and simple dive
>planning for deep dives that are important, but a certain amount of
>the manual is a repeat of the OW manual. What's more valuable, and
>what I stress more, is the stuff we do on shore before each dive and
>what we do in the water. AOW is about learning new skills, not on how
>to become a diver. Learning new skills safely.

Dillon, I agree that my prior comment applies less to AOW and more to OW.
I also agree that AOW is about developing existing skils and learning
new ones.

As I recall, the AOW manual I used had a general chapter or two, then
a group of chapters for the specific dives being done in the AOW course.
i.e. Deep dive; boat dive; night dive; etc.

We had only one "classroom" session, in which we discussed the general
material. We were told to read the chapter(s) pertient to the dives being
done. We then discussed this information at the dive site, before diving.

I think this was a good approach.

As to the end-of-chapter exercises/questions -- while the OW questions
were certainly right-from-the-book, my memory is that the AOW questions
we not always so "obvious". In fact, I recall that we never got a
"definative" for some of the questions. If I went back and looked at
them, I'd expect that to this day I don't know what point(s) they were
trying to make.

Not only PADI manuals, but manuals from at least two other agencies I've
experienced are often not well written. I think the problem is that they
are written by individuals who know a lot about diving, but not a lot about
the educational process. Good divers are not always good instructors;
good divers and good instructors do not always write good manuals.

--
Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA
(hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

"mike gray" wrote

>> I don't adjust my buoyancy by altering my breathing patterns when using
>> doubles. 8^)

> Damn! Another in-water skill I gotta teach ya.

Not until the water warms up. Then you can start by teaching me to use
doubles properly. I'll worry about the more advanced buoyancy issue after
I've mastered the basic ones.

Lee

Dillon Pyron wrote:

> In point of fact, skills development is what AOW is about.

Which skills specifically?

And, developped into what?

Matthias

sytech@yahoo.com wrote:

> I can really see now that PADI wants to virtually assure that you pass
> the course. As a result as I continue my training I will do all that
> I can to avoid PADI.

I was always told that NAUI is more comprehensive than PADI. My OW I is NAUI
but my advanced is PADI. It's like flying an airplane, a certification
should be viewed as a license to learn, not a "your an expert, have at it"
doc.