Anyone hard anything about Kimber?

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 05:48:18 -0500, John Hanson
<jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote:

>I wonder who is meant by her family.
>Her children or her parents or perhaps her boyfriend or even an
>ex-husband.

Her eldest child is, I believe, 13. AFAIK 'family' principally means
her mum, who is very much on the scene.

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'

Lee Bell wrote:
> "John Hanson" wrote
>
> > Am I missing something here?
>
> Mostly, you're missing the history of conjecture, speculation and finger
> pointing that has gone on relative to almost every scuba accident since
> there were newsgroups to allow it all as well as the almost certainty that a
> substantial portion of the traffic is both uninformed and incorrect. That
> doesn't stop us from doing it over and over, but it's reason enough for
> someone to try.
>
> Kimber used to be an active member here. We talked with her, talked with
> her deceased husband and even went through his death with her. A lot of us
> know her. Some of us know her and her kids well. On behalf of the group,
> some of us even tried to provide some financial assistance when her husband
> died unexpectedly. As far as I know, Kimber is a competent diver, but she's
> not a diving celebrity. She's simply somebody a lot of people know.
>
> Few, if any, of us know Kimbers family. They have little or no reason to
> communicate anything with us. The requests to wait until the facts are in,
> however, are probably not coming directly from them. They're probably
> coming from friends who have seen how crazy discussions like this can get
> and, almost certainly, from those related to the operator she was using at
> the time, an operator that, along with any buddy she may have had at the
> time, will be the subject of a rather extensive investigation and who,
> fairly or not, will probably be blamed for some element of the accident by
> people who don't have much of a clue about the sport and who don't need the
> be helped in reaching bad conclusions by the kind of speculation that
> happens in forums like this one.
>
> Of course, none of this changes the fact that we're interested in her
> condition, in what happened to put her in that condition and in what we can
> do differently to ensure that the next thread like this isn't about another
> one of us.
>
> Lee

Good explanation, Lee.

As for the competent diver part, I can't respond as I never saw her
underwater. When she was at Gilboa doing her honeymoon dives, about a
year of her chamber rides from her checkout dives, she had a new
drysuit to learn. In 2 days she never managed to get below the surface
with it, as far as I know. That was a few years ago, though.

I'd like to learn from this, too, if we can. As an instructor and one
who charters boats for groups of pleasure divers, I'm concerned about
my liability should a diver be injured or become ill through no
(apparent) fault of mine. Suppose someone with an undetected PFO hops
on the boat and suffers an injury, for example? A friend out here
recently gave up diving after learning he had one. Among the rest of
us, 1 in 5 statistically has a PFO as well.

I pray for a full recovery for Kimber.

*

"Star" wrote

> As for the competent diver part, I can't respond as I never saw her
> underwater.

She did some dives with us in Boynton. I wasn't watching particularly
closely, but I saw no reason to worry. Then again, Boynton dives aren't the
kind you'd use to separate the good, bad and ugly.

> I'd like to learn from this, too, if we can. As an instructor and one
> who charters boats for groups of pleasure divers, I'm concerned about
> my liability should a diver be injured or become ill through no
> (apparent) fault of mine.

Silly diver. All diving accidents are the fault of the instructor, or the
agency, or the operator, or some guy walking down the street. Lord help us,
they certainly could not be the fault of the only person really in control
of the dive, the diver him or herself.

Hopefully, my sarcasm is clear enough that nobody thinks I believe that.

I've never quite understood most of the liability problems we have in this
industry. There are some basics that every instructor should teach every
student. There aren't a lot of them and they're not particularly complex.
Of course, there wouldn't be a lot of profit if that's all agencies offered,
but nobody every promised all things would turn a tidy profit. If an
instructor fails to provide the basics or fails to insure that the student
understands them and can apply them consistently, the instructor and the
agency that authorized them to sign certifications deserve to get their butt
sued. Beyond that, you'd think someone would figure out a way to
communicate that everything else is a matter of opinion, hopefully informed
opinion, and that it's up to the certified diver, new or not, to figure out
what to accept and what to reject. Somehow, the message that it's a diver's
own responsibility to ensure they are safe on every dive and that any
failure to do so is the diver's own fault and nobody else's, needs to be
sent.

In my mind, the issue of charters is easy too. You pay for a captain, crew
and boat to do certain things. Normally, you expect a ride to and from a
dive site and some form of briefing about the dive site. You expect the
boat to be suitable for the diving and number of passengers, in good
condition and properly equipped for the service being provided. You expect
the captain and crew to be competent in their jobs and for there to be
enough of them to do the job correctly. Beyond that, you're on your own.

> Suppose someone with an undetected PFO hops on the boat and suffers an
> injury, for example?

How does that differ from any other physical or health issue. It's the
diver's risk and responsibility.

Lee

"Star" <lclee1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150117282.979704.248610@h76g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

> I'd like to learn from this, too, if we can. As an instructor and one
> who charters boats for groups of pleasure divers, I'm concerned about
> my liability should a diver be injured or become ill through no
> (apparent) fault of mine. Suppose someone with an undetected PFO hops
> on the boat and suffers an injury, for example? A friend out here
> recently gave up diving after learning he had one. Among the rest of
> us, 1 in 5 statistically has a PFO as well.

There are only two things you can get to protect yourself: good insurance
and good waivers. The rest is up to God and the courts.

While it may seem you're taking on a bigger risk than the average
individual, you're really not. Many (most?) states will enforce
well-drafted waivers and your insurance should provide counsel. Meanwhile
average individuals are potentially subject to multimillion dollar lawsuits
every time they drive their cars.

Greg Mossman wrote:
> "Star" <lclee1@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1150117282.979704.248610@h76g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>
> > I'd like to learn from this, too, if we can. As an instructor and one
> > who charters boats for groups of pleasure divers, I'm concerned about
> > my liability should a diver be injured or become ill through no
> > (apparent) fault of mine. Suppose someone with an undetected PFO hops
> > on the boat and suffers an injury, for example? A friend out here
> > recently gave up diving after learning he had one. Among the rest of
> > us, 1 in 5 statistically has a PFO as well.
>
> There are only two things you can get to protect yourself: good insurance
> and good waivers. The rest is up to God and the courts.
>
> While it may seem you're taking on a bigger risk than the average
> individual, you're really not. Many (most?) states will enforce
> well-drafted waivers and your insurance should provide counsel. Meanwhile
> average individuals are potentially subject to multimillion dollar lawsuits
> every time they drive their cars.

I've heard discussions lately that a diver can sign away his own right
to sue but cannot sign away any rights his surviving family might have
to sue.

I have insurance, and a great waiver as modified by my (diving - i
trained him and his family) attorney. I know that anyone nearby during
an incident is likely to be named and at least asked for a statement.

Would you think it bad to board a dive boat as a paying customer on a
vacation and not show an instructor or DM card? Understand that were
there need to do so, I would act in accordance with my training to
offer aid or support and pray that Good Samaritan laws will protect me.


*

"Star" wrote

> Would you think it bad to board a dive boat as a paying customer on a
> vacation and not show an instructor or DM card?

On our dive on the Spiegel Grove, I showed a 1969 NAUI card that said my
certification level was SCUBA. Unless there's a good reason to shore more,
why would it be bad not to shore more?

> Understand that were there need to do so, I would act in accordance with
> my training to
> offer aid or support and pray that Good Samaritan laws will protect me.

Unless you're a lot different than I think, you'd act to the best of your
ability to offer aid or support in an emergency situation, regardless of the
standards of your training.

Lee

On 12 Jun 2006 11:08:50 -0700, "Star" <lclee1@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Greg Mossman wrote:
>> "Star" <lclee1@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1150117282.979704.248610@h76g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>>
>> > I'd like to learn from this, too, if we can. As an instructor and one
>> > who charters boats for groups of pleasure divers, I'm concerned about
>> > my liability should a diver be injured or become ill through no
>> > (apparent) fault of mine. Suppose someone with an undetected PFO hops
>> > on the boat and suffers an injury, for example? A friend out here
>> > recently gave up diving after learning he had one. Among the rest of
>> > us, 1 in 5 statistically has a PFO as well.
>>
>> There are only two things you can get to protect yourself: good insurance
>> and good waivers. The rest is up to God and the courts.
>>
>> While it may seem you're taking on a bigger risk than the average
>> individual, you're really not. Many (most?) states will enforce
>> well-drafted waivers and your insurance should provide counsel. Meanwhile
>> average individuals are potentially subject to multimillion dollar lawsuits
>> every time they drive their cars.
>
>I've heard discussions lately that a diver can sign away his own right
>to sue but cannot sign away any rights his surviving family might have
>to sue.
>
>I have insurance, and a great waiver as modified by my (diving - i
>trained him and his family) attorney. I know that anyone nearby during
>an incident is likely to be named and at least asked for a statement.
>
>Would you think it bad to board a dive boat as a paying customer on a
>vacation and not show an instructor or DM card? Understand that were
>there need to do so, I would act in accordance with my training to
>offer aid or support and pray that Good Samaritan laws will protect me.
>
>
>*

I show whatever card the dive calls for. I would feel that it might be
a bit presumptuous to whip out my instructors card. My identity need
not be know until time of need.

SpringDiver wrote:

> I show whatever card the dive calls for. I would feel that it might be
> a bit presumptuous to whip out my instructors card. My identity need
> not be know until time of need.

You get a card for diving? I want a plaque!

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:33:27 -0400, "Lee Bell"
<pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> On our dive on the Spiegel Grove, I showed a 1969 NAUI card that said my
> certification level was SCUBA. Unless there's a good reason to shore more,
> why would it be bad not to shore more?

For some reason, when she asked if I had a different card, she didn't
like the one that I produced... Damn, they're picky...

Grumman-581 wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:33:27 -0400, "Lee Bell"
> <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > On our dive on the Spiegel Grove, I showed a 1969 NAUI card that said my
> > certification level was SCUBA. Unless there's a good reason to shore more,
> > why would it be bad not to shore more?
>
> For some reason, when she asked if I had a different card, she didn't
> like the one that I produced... Damn, they're picky...

Once upon a time, a long long time ago, at a well-known midwestern
quarry where I had done quite a bit of diving and taken quite a few
friends, family members, and students, I showed up for a demo-day thing
to help out with UW tours.

Upon entering the office, I was accosted by a woman who demanded to see
my C-card.

Brief pause. Where was it?

Dash back to truck; inform husband that he will need to show his
C-card. He promptly pulls it from his dive log, strolls on over to the
office, and completes his admission paperwork.

I rummage through my dive bag and manage to find a few cards, none of
them my original C-card. I figure one of the tech instructor cards
ought to do, trot them back into the office and present them the nice
lady.

"No, no, Dear," she said. "I can't use this kind of card. I need
your C-CARD."

*