how you been?

Wow. slow time of year. Not many posts since my last one. I havn't been in
here in awhile.
How have you all been doing?
I've been diving throughout the winter here in Michigan...finally
reconfigured ALL of my gear to the "non-recreational" configuration to that
of wreck diving e.g., back plates, all that stuff...Can't believe the
difference in trim getting away from jacket style BC's...but you all know
that already.
Just thought I'd drop a quick hello since I subscribed, and stopped posting.

--
~Rick
www.BrethrenoftheCoast.net

"Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net" <nqg@brethrenofthecoast.net> wrote in
message news:D9SdnaXu74Uik3PYnZ2dnUVZ_sOknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> Wow. slow time of year. Not many posts since my last one. I havn't been in
> here in awhile.
> How have you all been doing?
> I've been diving throughout the winter here in Michigan...finally
> reconfigured ALL of my gear to the "non-recreational" configuration to
> that of wreck diving e.g., back plates, all that stuff...Can't believe the
> difference in trim getting away from jacket style BC's...but you all know
> that already.
> Just thought I'd drop a quick hello since I subscribed, and stopped
> posting.
>
> --
> ~Rick
> www.BrethrenoftheCoast.net



We're all old hands at the backplate.

While it's fresh on your mind, why don't you elaborate for some of the
newer posters what your change-over motivations and experiences are/were?

--


Popeye
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and
his rifle." Gen. John "Black Jack" Pershing, U.S. Army
Commander of American Forces in World War I
www.finalprotectivefire.com

"Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick" <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote in
message news:12us6nlp1ftve06@news.supernews.com...
> "Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net" <nqg@brethrenofthecoast.net> wrote in
> message news:D9SdnaXu74Uik3PYnZ2dnUVZ_sOknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>> Wow. slow time of year. Not many posts since my last one. I havn't been
>> in here in awhile.
>> How have you all been doing?
>> I've been diving throughout the winter here in Michigan...finally
>> reconfigured ALL of my gear to the "non-recreational" configuration to
>> that of wreck diving e.g., back plates, all that stuff...Can't believe
>> the difference in trim getting away from jacket style BC's...but you all
>> know that already.
>> Just thought I'd drop a quick hello since I subscribed, and stopped
>> posting.
>>
>> --
>> ~Rick
>> www.BrethrenoftheCoast.net
>
>
>
> We're all old hands at the backplate.
>
> While it's fresh on your mind, why don't you elaborate for some of the
> newer posters what your change-over motivations and experiences are/were?
>
> --
>
>
> Popeye
> "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and
> his rifle." Gen. John "Black Jack" Pershing, U.S. Army
> Commander of American Forces in World War I
> www.finalprotectivefire.com
>

Sure...
I've not been certified that long, but quickly became obsessed with diving.
We continue to dive all winter long here with air temps at 17 degrees and
water temps around 36 degrees. While we do get to Florida once in awhile and
dive in tropical conditions, most of our dives are in the St. Clair River in
Michigan which is between Detroit and Port Huron on the Eastern end of the
state, or Lake Huron. We can gear up in our house, walk across the lawn and
jump in the river for a drift dive. Usually 1/2 to 3/4 mile drift. In
addition, in summer when the boat is in we can head up to Lake Huron and do
deeper dives on some very in tact wrecks, some 40-50 feet deep, some much
deeper. The river dives typically offer a 5mph current and visibility as low
as 8 inches, to a good day of 10-20 foot visibility...and there are also
many wrecks in the river.
Like most divers, the local dive shop will set new divers up with an
aluminum 80, and a jacket style BC and all the other danglies that go along
with it.
The risks in our area are numerous. The river especially. In addition to
swift currents, there is much boat traffic including 1000 foot freighters
that even though we try to avoid, sometimes end up directly above during our
dive.

A few incidents which caused me to change my gear configuration;

1. Wreck w/current, low viz

Diving a new found 175 foot fully in tact 1889 wreck in the river last
summer, my brother and I were diving with a new diver, we were down only
about 55 feet in about 3 foot visibility. The new diver panicked, silted us
out and he bolted to the surface in a high traffic boat area. My brother and
I stayed down, waited a bit for the current to clear but it never really
did, so we ventured towards the bow. With no visibility at this point we
noticed it getting darker. At this point we figured we'd accidentally swam
through a hole in the side of the ship and accidentally penetrated the
vessel. Of course now my regulator begins to free flow, and quickly deplete
my air supply.
Having only a single, with only an Air2 off the same source, shutting down
this reg was not an option.
Not panicking, following our course and keeping my brother close by in case
his air was needed got us back to our proper exit point. I had 100 lbs of
air left when I surfaced.
If I had doubles, I could have switched to my other reg, and cut the faulty
supply.
Or
If I had a single with an H-valve, could have cut faulty reg and used other.

2. Drift Dive

Drifting along the St. Clair River bottom it was time to ascend, so, I add
air to my jacket style BC...Nothing.
The Air2 had failed, and air added was simply coming out of the air2
mouthpiece. The BC would not inflate.
I could have simply dumped my weight belt, but chose to crawl along the
bottom up the drop off to get to the sea wall. I am familiar with the river
and had a good supply of air left and didn't want to have to replace the
weight belt.

3. In general

The 1st day I dove with the backplate bladder instead of the jacket, I felt
I had been diving for 30 years. The biggest noticeable difference was trim
and control. I will never wear a jacket style BC again.
Also the weight of tank(s) is shifted and much easier to carry above water.

4. DIR/Hogarthian/Tech?

After researching configurations, I've learned that tech and DIR have many
similarities. I didn't go DIR but have adapted some DIR principles that work
for my dives here in Michigan. DIR is a little rigid and cave oriented, and
unrealistic in dependence on buddies (who can disappear downstream quickly
in 3 foot viz).
I do like the redundancy aspect but the minimalism of DIR isn't possible
here in the great lakes.
Basically part of the new configuration is;
DiveRite SS Backplate
Zeagle bladder for singles or DiveRite Classic bladder for doubles
STA for singles w/H-valve or OMS manifold for doubles
Mares Abyss primary reg on 7 foot hose (5 foot is probably ok here, but 7
isn't a problem at all to tuck away)
Scuba Pro R190 Necklaced backup reg

Bottom line is, configuring my gear to my environment and what is
comfortable works for me.

Thanks!

--
~Rick
www.BrethrenoftheCoast.net

On Mar 8, 7:39 am, "Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net"
<n...@brethrenofthecoast.net> wrote:

> If I had doubles, I could have switched to my other reg, and cut the faulty
> supply.
> Or
> If I had a single with an H-valve, could have cut faulty reg and used other.

If you had either, you still could have died. All the redundancy in
the world can't make up for idiocy. If you penetrated an overhead
space and weren't even sure how you got there, you're lucky you made
it out at all.

> Drifting along the St. Clair River bottom it was time to ascend, so, I add
> air to my jacket style BC...Nothing.
> The Air2 had failed, and air added was simply coming out of the air2
> mouthpiece. The BC would not inflate.

There's no way to manually inflate the BC with an Air2? Failure of a
power inflator is one of the easiest gear problems to handle and
shouldn't result in calling a dive.

> Also the weight of tank(s) is shifted and much easier to carry above water.

Ease of use above water should not be a consideration for DIR-styled
gear configuration.

> After researching configurations, I've learned that tech and DIR have many
> similarities. I didn't go DIR but have adapted some DIR principles that work
> for my dives here in Michigan. DIR is a little rigid and cave oriented, and
> unrealistic in dependence on buddies (who can disappear downstream quickly
> in 3 foot viz).

You are mixing terms that have no business being compared to each
other.

"Tech" has many definitions, but it's basically a mental step beyond
recreational diving, some added characteristic that adds at least
another level of danger to the dive. The term used to encompass all
mixed-gas diving, including nitrox, but now is primarily relegated to
dives involving significant penetration (beyond "cavern" limits),
depth (beyond 130' ?), or mandatory decompression (except for European
divers who do plenty of rec deco), or any combination of the above.
You can do all these things "rec" style, but when done as technical
diving, the diver hopefully has proper training and equipment to make
the dives safely. It's the proper training and equipment that really
differential "tech" from "rec".

DIR is a philosophy of diving that was originally developed by
technical divers for technical diving. It stresses a standard gear
configuration (based on Hogarthian configuration, with emphasis on
streamlining/minimalism), buddy or team diving, and a commitment to
skill development and maintenance and physical health. Plenty of
divers try to apply DIR principles to recreational diving. Some even
succeed.

> I do like the redundancy aspect but the minimalism of DIR isn't possible
> here in the great lakes.

Sure it is. The question is how much do you benefit from streamlining
and standardization versus having all your "danglies" at hand.

"Greg Mossman" <mossman@qnet.com> wrote in message
news:1173370059.040185.104050@c51g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com...
> On Mar 8, 7:39 am, "Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net"
> <n...@brethrenofthecoast.net> wrote:
>
>> If I had doubles, I could have switched to my other reg, and cut the
>> faulty
>> supply.
>> Or
>> If I had a single with an H-valve, could have cut faulty reg and used
>> other.
>
> If you had either, you still could have died. All the redundancy in
> the world can't make up for idiocy. If you penetrated an overhead
> space and weren't even sure how you got there, you're lucky you made
> it out at all.
>
>> Drifting along the St. Clair River bottom it was time to ascend, so, I
>> add
>> air to my jacket style BC...Nothing.
>> The Air2 had failed, and air added was simply coming out of the air2
>> mouthpiece. The BC would not inflate.
>
> There's no way to manually inflate the BC with an Air2? Failure of a
> power inflator is one of the easiest gear problems to handle and
> shouldn't result in calling a dive.
>
>> Also the weight of tank(s) is shifted and much easier to carry above
>> water.
>
> Ease of use above water should not be a consideration for DIR-styled
> gear configuration.
>
>> After researching configurations, I've learned that tech and DIR have
>> many
>> similarities. I didn't go DIR but have adapted some DIR principles that
>> work
>> for my dives here in Michigan. DIR is a little rigid and cave oriented,
>> and
>> unrealistic in dependence on buddies (who can disappear downstream
>> quickly
>> in 3 foot viz).
>
> You are mixing terms that have no business being compared to each
> other.
>
> "Tech" has many definitions, but it's basically a mental step beyond
> recreational diving, some added characteristic that adds at least
> another level of danger to the dive. The term used to encompass all
> mixed-gas diving, including nitrox, but now is primarily relegated to
> dives involving significant penetration (beyond "cavern" limits),
> depth (beyond 130' ?), or mandatory decompression (except for European
> divers who do plenty of rec deco), or any combination of the above.
> You can do all these things "rec" style, but when done as technical
> diving, the diver hopefully has proper training and equipment to make
> the dives safely. It's the proper training and equipment that really
> differential "tech" from "rec".
>
> DIR is a philosophy of diving that was originally developed by
> technical divers for technical diving. It stresses a standard gear
> configuration (based on Hogarthian configuration, with emphasis on
> streamlining/minimalism), buddy or team diving, and a commitment to
> skill development and maintenance and physical health. Plenty of
> divers try to apply DIR principles to recreational diving. Some even
> succeed.
>
>> I do like the redundancy aspect but the minimalism of DIR isn't possible
>> here in the great lakes.
>
> Sure it is. The question is how much do you benefit from streamlining
> and standardization versus having all your "danglies" at hand.
>
>
- - -
> If you had either, you still could have died. All the redundancy in
> the world can't make up for idiocy. If you penetrated an overhead
> space and weren't even sure how you got there, you're lucky you made
> it out at all.

I agree, although the idiot on the dive was the new guy that silted us out.
We stayed our course, which turned out to be correct, and we were fine. We
never penetrated the wreck.
The experience only made me a better diver.

> There's no way to manually inflate the BC with an Air2? Failure of a
> power inflator is one of the easiest gear problems to handle and
> shouldn't result in calling a dive.

It was a 2nd Air/Air 2, not a power inflator. If I recall, manually
inflating it it wouldn't hold air either. all air would just exhaust through
the mouthpiece.
And, I was in the process of ending the dive. I wouldnt have called it for a
faulty BC.

> Ease of use above water should not be a consideration for DIR-styled
> gear configuration.

That's why I'm not "DIR" as I do consider ease of transport above water to
be an issue to some extent.
Not to the extent that it may sacrifice anything beneath the water.
We don't simply gear up on a dive boat and jump in. We often walk blocks to
get to a spot to enter.

> You are mixing terms that have no business being compared to each
> other.

Probably am
I'm not professing to know it all...actively learning though.
It's all interesting to me. Thanks for your input.


--
~Rick
www.BrethrenoftheCoast.net

On Mar 8, 2:03 pm, "Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net"
<n...@brethrenofthecoast.net> wrote:

> The experience only made me a better diver.

What doesn't kill us . . .

Unfortunately there will never be an adequate instructional substitute
for near-death experiences, even those where the "near death" part may
be exaggerated. No video or CD-ROM can reinforce safety concepts as
well as actually experiencing the results of ignoring the teachings.

> It was a 2nd Air/Air 2, not a power inflator. If I recall, manually
> inflating it it wouldn't hold air either. all air would just exhaust through
> the mouthpiece.

I suppose you could kink the hose after manually inflating to keep the
air in, but why damage a good hose? That may be a situation worth
aborting over, unless you have a drysuit or dual-bladder system for
redundant inflation.

> And, I was in the process of ending the dive. I wouldnt have called it for a
> faulty BC.

For an overweighted diver wearing lots of compressible neoprene, a BC
that doesn't hold air would keep the dive short anyway since the diver
will be constantly kicking just to stay level.

> That's why I'm not "DIR" as I do consider ease of transport above water to
> be an issue to some extent.

The DIR types insist that they can travel just as easily with their
rigs, but none of the rest of us believe them. We saw what happened
to the followers of Jim Jones. Blindly following anyone with the
initials JJ is bad karma.

Still, if they shorten the primary hose a bit, and trade the heavy
backplate and bands for a more streamlined soft back and straps and
inclusive "wings", their recreational gear configuration looks
remarkably like mine except that mine is made even more streamlined by
ditching a superfluous HP hose and dangling gauge in favor of a
hoseless pressure transmitter and wrist gauge/computer. By being more
streamlined than DIR, I am DIBTR(tm).

> Not to the extent that it may sacrifice anything beneath the water.
> We don't simply gear up on a dive boat and jump in. We often walk blocks to
> get to a spot to enter.

Here we can walk a couple blocks, then hike down (and later up) six or
seven flights of stairs. I prefer boats, but would settle for a nice
escalator.

On 8 Mar 2007 16:07:43 -0800, "Greg Mossman" <mossman@qnet.com> wrote:
> The DIR types insist that they can travel just as easily with their
> rigs, but none of the rest of us believe them. We saw what happened
> to the followers of Jim Jones. Blindly following anyone with the
> initials JJ is bad karma.

Oooooh... I like that one... You might have a point there... Jim
Jones, Jessie Jackson...

"Greg Mossman" <mossman@qnet.com> wrote in message
news:1173398863.197164.78640@c51g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> On Mar 8, 2:03 pm, "Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net"
> <n...@brethrenofthecoast.net> wrote:
>
>> The experience only made me a better diver.
>
> What doesn't kill us . . .
>
> Unfortunately there will never be an adequate instructional substitute
> for near-death experiences, even those where the "near death" part may
> be exaggerated. No video or CD-ROM can reinforce safety concepts as
> well as actually experiencing the results of ignoring the teachings.
>
>> It was a 2nd Air/Air 2, not a power inflator. If I recall, manually
>> inflating it it wouldn't hold air either. all air would just exhaust
>> through
>> the mouthpiece.
>
> I suppose you could kink the hose after manually inflating to keep the
> air in, but why damage a good hose? That may be a situation worth
> aborting over, unless you have a drysuit or dual-bladder system for
> redundant inflation.
>
>> And, I was in the process of ending the dive. I wouldnt have called it
>> for a
>> faulty BC.
>
> For an overweighted diver wearing lots of compressible neoprene, a BC
> that doesn't hold air would keep the dive short anyway since the diver
> will be constantly kicking just to stay level.
>
>> That's why I'm not "DIR" as I do consider ease of transport above water
>> to
>> be an issue to some extent.
>
> The DIR types insist that they can travel just as easily with their
> rigs, but none of the rest of us believe them. We saw what happened
> to the followers of Jim Jones. Blindly following anyone with the
> initials JJ is bad karma.
>
> Still, if they shorten the primary hose a bit, and trade the heavy
> backplate and bands for a more streamlined soft back and straps and
> inclusive "wings", their recreational gear configuration looks
> remarkably like mine except that mine is made even more streamlined by
> ditching a superfluous HP hose and dangling gauge in favor of a
> hoseless pressure transmitter and wrist gauge/computer. By being more
> streamlined than DIR, I am DIBTR(tm).
>
>> Not to the extent that it may sacrifice anything beneath the water.
>> We don't simply gear up on a dive boat and jump in. We often walk blocks
>> to
>> get to a spot to enter.
>
> Here we can walk a couple blocks, then hike down (and later up) six or
> seven flights of stairs. I prefer boats, but would settle for a nice
> escalator.
>
Good points - thanks again.

--
~Rick
www.BrethrenoftheCoast.net