Re: A rational Canadian approach to firearms.

Seems kinda sparse in this thread today...


January 16, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
A Rifle in Every Pot By GLENN REYNOLDS

Knoxville, Tenn.

IT'S a phenomenon that gives the term "gun control" a whole new meaning:
community ordinances that encourage citizens to own guns.

Last month, Greenleaf, Idaho, adopted Ordinance 208, calling for its
citizens to own guns and keep them ready in their homes in case of
emergency. It's not a response to high crime rates. As The Associated Press
reported, "Greenleaf doesn't really have crime ... the most violent offense
reported in the past two years was a fist fight." Rather, it's a statement
about preparedness in the event of an emergency, and an effort to promote a
culture of self-reliance.

And it may not be a bad idea. While pro-gun laws like the one in Greenleaf
are mostly symbolic, to the extent that they actually make a difference, it
is likely to be a positive one.

Greenleaf is following in the footsteps of Kennesaw, Ga., which in 1982
passed a mandatory gun ownership law in response to a handgun ban passed in
Morton Grove, Ill. Kennesaw's crime dropped sharply, while Morton Grove's
did not.

To some degree, this is rational. Criminals, unsurprisingly, would rather
break into a house where they aren't at risk of being shot. As David Kopel
noted in a 2001 article in The Arizona Law Review, burglars report that they
try to avoid homes where armed residents are likely to be present. We see
this phenomenon internationally, too, with the United States having a lower
proportion of "hot" burglaries - break-ins where the burglars know the home
to be occupied - than countries with restrictive gun laws.

Likewise, in the event of disasters that leave law enforcement overwhelmed,
armed citizens can play an important role in stanching crime. Armed
neighborhood watches deterred looting in parts of Houston and New Orleans in
the aftermath of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita.

Precisely because an armed populace can serve as an effective backup for law
enforcement, the ownership of firearms was widely mandated during Colonial
times, and the second Congress passed a statute in 1792 requiring adult male
citizens to own guns.

The twin purposes of self and community defense may very well lie behind the
Second Amendment's language encompassing both the importance of a
well-regulated militia and the right of citizens to keep and bear arms. As
the constitutional and criminal law scholar Don Kates has noted in the
journal Constitutional Commentary, thinkers at the time when the
Constitution was written drew no real distinction between resisting
burglars, foreign invaders or domestic tyrants: All were wrongdoers that
good citizens had the right, and the duty, to oppose with force.

Greenleaf's ordinance is consistent with this approach. But it may also
serve another purpose.

Experts don't think the Kennesaw ordinance, which has never actually been
enforced, did much to change gun ownership rates among Kennesaw residents.
And, given that Greenleaf's mayor has estimated that 80 percent of the
town's residents already own guns, the new ordinance can't make all that
much of a difference. But criminals are likely to suspect that towns with
laws like these on the books will be unsympathetic to malefactors in
general, and to conclude that they will do better elsewhere.

To the extent that's true, we're likely to see other communities adopting
similar laws so that criminals won't see them as attractive alternatives.
The result may be a different kind of "gun control."

--
Popeye
When a dog pisses on a fire hydrant,
He's not committing an act of vandalism,
He's just being a dog
www.finalprotectivefire.com

Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick wrote

> Last month, Greenleaf, Idaho, adopted Ordinance 208, calling for its
> citizens to own guns and keep them ready in their homes in case of
> emergency. It's not a response to high crime rates. As The Associated
> Press
> reported, "Greenleaf doesn't really have crime ... the most violent
> offense
> reported in the past two years was a fist fight." Rather, it's a statement
> about preparedness in the event of an emergency, and an effort to promote
> a
> culture of self-reliance.

Interesting words, "It's a statement about preparedness in the event of an
emergency, and an effort to promote a culture of self reliance." Where have
I heard that before?

> Greenleaf is following in the footsteps of Kennesaw, Ga., which in 1982
> passed a mandatory gun ownership law in response to a handgun ban passed
> in
> Morton Grove, Ill. Kennesaw's crime dropped sharply, while Morton Grove's
> did not.

No kidding, crime decreased in a community that supported, and evern
advertised, the right to keep and bear arms and didn't in a community the
restricted them. I think I saw something like that somewhere too.

> To some degree, this is rational. Criminals, unsurprisingly, would rather
> break into a house where they aren't at risk of being shot. As David Kopel
> noted in a 2001 article in The Arizona Law Review, burglars report that
> they
> try to avoid homes where armed residents are likely to be present. We see
> this phenomenon internationally, too, with the United States having a
> lower
> proportion of "hot" burglaries - break-ins where the burglars know the
> home
> to be occupied - than countries with restrictive gun laws.

Darn, it's daja vu all over again. I'm sure I've heard that too.

> Precisely because an armed populace can serve as an effective backup for
> law
> enforcement, the ownership of firearms was widely mandated during Colonial
> times, and the second Congress passed a statute in 1792 requiring adult
> male
> citizens to own guns.

This was when the founding fathers were drafting their documents, right?
Seems I've seen something about them intentionally supporting the individual
right to keep and bear arms.

> To the extent that's true, we're likely to see other communities adopting
> similar laws so that criminals won't see them as attractive alternatives.
> The result may be a different kind of "gun control."

But only in America. They don't need to be prepared in Canada. Nothing bad
will ever happen there.

Keep up the good work, brothers to the north. Don't pay any attention to
that part about criminals being more comfortable, and more active, in areas
where guns are discouraged and less comfortable and less active pursuing
their occupation where gun ownership is supported. Please also ignore the
difference in the support for, and the concentration of guns in the US and
the relative lack of them in much of Canada. It doesn't mean anything,
really, it doesn't.

Lee

Hwæt! "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick"
<Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com>, soðe:

> As David Kopel
> noted in a 2001 article in The Arizona Law Review, burglars
> report that they try to avoid homes where armed residents are
> likely to be present.

The ALR isn't a peer reviewed journal and Kopel's assertion is not
supported.

Legitimate research published in a peer-reviewed journal shows that
burglary is higher in jurisdictions with higher levels of gun
ownership.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Hwæt! "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net>, soðe:

> No kidding, crime decreased in a community that supported, and
> evern advertised, the right to keep and bear arms and didn't in
> a community the restricted them.

No, it didn't.

Reynolds is simply lying and you're stupid enough to accept the claim
without question.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Carl Nisarel wrote:
> Hwæt! "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick"
> <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com>, soðe:
>
> > As David Kopel
> > noted in a 2001 article in The Arizona Law Review, burglars
> > report that they try to avoid homes where armed residents are
> > likely to be present.
>
> The ALR isn't a peer reviewed journal and Kopel's assertion is not
> supported.
>
> Legitimate research published in a peer-reviewed journal shows that
> burglary is higher in jurisdictions with higher levels of gun
> ownership.
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Can we have a reference to support that claim Carl?

P.S. Carl, give me a kiss!

Hwæt! dazed and confuzzed <dedmann@comcast_remove.net>, soðe:

> Carl Nisarel wrote:
>
>> Hwæt! "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick"
>> <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com>, soðe:
>>
>>
>>>As David Kopel
>>>noted in a 2001 article in The Arizona Law Review, burglars
>>>report that they try to avoid homes where armed residents are
>>>likely to be present.
>>
>>
>> The ALR isn't a peer reviewed journal and Kopel's assertion is
>> not supported.
>>
>> Legitimate research published in a peer-reviewed journal shows
>> that burglary is higher in jurisdictions with higher levels of
>> gun ownership.
>>
>>
>>
> Cite?

"The Effects of Gun Prevalence on Burglary: Deterrence vs
Inducement," 2002, PJ Cook, J Ludwig

--
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Carl Nisarel wrote:
> "The Effects of Gun Prevalence on Burglary: Deterrence vs
> Inducement," 2002, PJ Cook, J Ludwig

Congratulations Carl, you've finally provided something to support your
claims.

Gee, that was hard wasn't it

Think you could tell Trevor about your wonderful new ability?

Carl Nisarel wrote:

> Hwæt! dazed and confuzzed <dedmann@comcast_remove.net>, soðe:
>
>
>>Carl Nisarel wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hwæt! "Douglas W \"Popeye\" Frederick"
>>><Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com>, soðe:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>As David Kopel
>>>>noted in a 2001 article in The Arizona Law Review, burglars
>>>>report that they try to avoid homes where armed residents are
>>>>likely to be present.
>>>
>>>
>>>The ALR isn't a peer reviewed journal and Kopel's assertion is
>>>not supported.
>>>
>>>Legitimate research published in a peer-reviewed journal shows
>>>that burglary is higher in jurisdictions with higher levels of
>>>gun ownership.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Cite?
>
>
> "The Effects of Gun Prevalence on Burglary: Deterrence vs
> Inducement," 2002, PJ Cook, J Ludwig
>
After reading the abstract, I have to ask:

Suicides using firearms correlates how to gun ownership?

No wonder the rest of us see you as a loon.

And here I thought you'd actually come up with a decent cite for your
"feelings".

--
“TAANSTAFL”
__________________________________________________ __________________________

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Hwæt! dazed and confuzzed <dedmann@comcast_remove.net>, soðe:

> I have to ask:
>
> Suicides using firearms correlates how to gun ownership?

"The results indicate that the best measure for cross-sectional
research is the percentage of suicides committed with guns"

Gary Kleck, 2004, "Measures of gun ownership levels for macro-level
crime and violence research" JOURNAL OF RESEARCH IN CRIME AND
DELINQUENCY, Vol. 41 No. 1, February 2004 3-36

Demonstrate your ignorance some more, fuckwit.




--
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Carl Nisarel wrote:

> Hwæt! dazed and confuzzed <dedmann@comcast_remove.net>, soðe:
>
>
>>And here I thought you'd actually come up with a decent cite for
>>your "feelings".
>>
>
>
> Yet you don't demand the same of the unsupported, undocumented, and
> unreferenced "feelings" written by Glenn Reynolds.

His, make sense, Perhaps the article you cited does as well.

Care to get me a copy to read?

If I'm wrong, I'll say so here.
>
> You're just a typical ignorant fuckwit gunhugger.

And you appear to be a coward, but I'll give you the benefit of the
doubt, as I have never met you. Too bad you don't have the manners to do
the same.
>
> The research I cited shreds Reynolds claim.
>
> You're too fuckin stupid to understand what's there.

I'll read it, if you get me a copy.
>
>


--
“TAANSTAFL”
__________________________________________________ __________________________

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
__________________________________________________ __________________________