Turks and Caicos - Liveaboard Comparisons

Recent feedback on Liveaboards and itineraries wiill be greatly
appreciated. My wife and I have 3oo+ dives and have done several
liveaboards in Bahamas and Belize. We are interested in T&C. Want to
dive, dive and dive. Land excursions not necessary. Thanks in advance
Nelson

"Dan Bracuk" <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com> wrote in message
news:84qve1t96m5ucuotghkeep1feh7e7pa34g@4ax.com...


> Myself,
> I have sailed with all three and like Peter Hughes the best.
>
> Something else you may consider important is that, unless I am
> mistaken, the Explorer has shared heads. The Wind Dancer has private
> heads

Some of those who have been diving liveaboards for a long time will remember
when nobody had private ensuite heads and showers. All Aggressors used to
have shared heads and showers. Then Peter came along and instituted private
ensuite heads in some of their boats and eventually all, and everyone else
had to follow suit if they could. It doesn't seem like much, but after that
5th dive of the day, when dinner will be served in an hour, not having to
wait in line to clean-up was an incredible change.

Peter is a sometimes squirrelly character, and has fallen down face first
more than once, but he truly did revolutionize the liveaboard industry to
the enjoyment of all of us. Peter actually made the Aggressor's better
boats.

Dan Bracuk wrote, in part:

> Something else you may consider important is that, unless I am
> mistaken, the Explorer has shared heads. The Wind Dancer has private
> heads and Aggressor has boat info on their website.

The Explorer has private heads as well.

http://www.explorerventures.com/tcex...urksindex.html

"Dan Bracuk" <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com> wrote in message
news:rc60f1ppha86lvl8f1tbcoeevim7gh685g@4ax.com...
> "Ross Garrett" <frederickrossgarrett@hotmail.com> pounded away at his
> keyboard resulting in:
> : Peter actually made the Aggressor's better
> :boats.
>
> Terrycloth robes being just one example.

Yeah, I agree. I have never been able to put my finger on precisely the
reason Aggressor feel second notch to Dancers. They are essentially the same
operations anymore (once one fleet makes a change the other follows suit
quickly) but for some reason the Dancer Fleet simply feels a bit more
integrated, a bit more polished and maybe a bit more consistent.

Having said that, one of the better liveaboards I have ever been on was the
Kona Aggressor, back in 1996-'97, before they switched boats. That Alaskan
partner Wayne had for most of the boats in Truk, Palau and Hawaii, sure did
have some nice vessels.

Ross Garrett wrote:
> "Dan Bracuk" <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com> wrote in message
> news:rc60f1ppha86lvl8f1tbcoeevim7gh685g@4ax.com...
> > "Ross Garrett" <frederickrossgarrett@hotmail.com> pounded away at his
> > keyboard resulting in:
> > : Peter actually made the Aggressor's better
> > :boats.
> >
> > Terrycloth robes being just one example.

One that I've NEVER used. Been on Dancers about 25 times.
>
> Yeah, I agree. I have never been able to put my finger on precisely the
> reason Aggressor feel second notch to Dancers.

Where did you get that idea.

Whenever the locations are served by both the Dancers and Aggressors,
such as Turks & Caicos, Belize, Bay Islands, Palau, etc., the diving
and the boats are generally a toss-up near equal. I've been on
BOTH fleets in those locations, more than once each.

Some boats are slightly better, some slightly worse. The CREW makes
a big difference. They change all the time.

Then there are locations NOT served by the Dancer: Coco's Island,
Tahiti, Cayman Islands. Those are THREE of the best liveaboards
I've ever dived -- ALL Aggressors. NO Dancer in any of those
lications.


> They are essentially the same
> operations anymore (once one fleet makes a change the other follows suit
> quickly) but for some reason the Dancer Fleet simply feels a bit more
> integrated, a bit more polished and maybe a bit more consistent

That part is true. But you have to understand the STRUCTURE of those
operations. Peter runs the Dancer Fleet and OWNS the boats. He can
make decisions Wayne Hasson cannot because the Aggressor boats are
franchised to different owners -- many of them locals in the dive
locations. While Wayne tries to maintain the same overall QUALITY
of the fleet (which he does well), he CANNOT make certain operational
decisions Peter Hughes can on the Dancer Fleet.

I like both Fleets and have been on as many of one as the other.

> Having said that, one of the better liveaboards I have ever been on was the
> Kona Aggressor, back in 1996-'97, before they switched boats.

Kona diving is generally inferior to diving elsewhere. That's why
they have smaller boats and can't fill them. I was on a Kona
Aggressor about the same time you did. Decided that was the last
time I would dive Hawaii on a liveaboard.

> That Alaskan
> partner Wayne had for most of the boats in Truk, Palau and Hawaii, sure did
> have some nice vessels.

The Truk Aggressor is the only one I will never dive because I don't
dive in overhead environments and I dislike wrecks. I thought
the Truk Aggressor is generally NOT well rated, compared to Thorfinn
and some other operations there.

At any rate, the ONLY thing that is true about those two fleets is
that they can ALWAYS be counted on for good crew, good service, and
good diving, with very little variance, no matter what the location
is.

And that says a LOT.

-- Bob.

"Reef Fish" <Large_Nassau_Grouper@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123170469.706245.33030@g44g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...

> Then there are locations NOT served by the Dancer: Coco's Island,
> Tahiti, Cayman Islands. Those are THREE of the best liveaboards
> I've ever dived -- ALL Aggressors. NO Dancer in any of those
> lications.

Haven't done the Cayman Aggressor yet, but I can't say that Tahiti and
Okeanos were even close to the best liveaboards I've dove. The Tahiti boat
was very nice, but was staffed by a lousy crew. I've spoken with others who
didn't have any of the problems we had on our trip. But the Okeanos boat
was one of the most uncomfortable liveaboards I've ever done (see my recent
trip report for detail).

> That part is true. But you have to understand the STRUCTURE of those
> operations. Peter runs the Dancer Fleet and OWNS the boats. He can
> make decisions Wayne Hasson cannot because the Aggressor boats are
> franchised to different owners -- many of them locals in the dive
> locations. While Wayne tries to maintain the same overall QUALITY
> of the fleet (which he does well), he CANNOT make certain operational
> decisions Peter Hughes can on the Dancer Fleet.

Franchisors have a lot of pull. Sometimes they can demand things from their
franchisees that an owner wouldn't demand of his own boats. How long would
the Okeanos Aggressor last on its own, say, if Wayne "abandoned ship"?

> Kona diving is generally inferior to diving elsewhere. That's why
> they have smaller boats and can't fill them. I was on a Kona
> Aggressor about the same time you did. Decided that was the last
> time I would dive Hawaii on a liveaboard.

After talking to people that have ranked their Kona trip as one of the best
boats they've done, I'm considering it for the future.

> The Truk Aggressor is the only one I will never dive because I don't
> dive in overhead environments and I dislike wrecks. I thought
> the Truk Aggressor is generally NOT well rated, compared to Thorfinn
> and some other operations there.

You'll also never dive it because it no longer exists. It moved (or is
moving) to Sulawesi, AFAIK. Probably because it couldn't compete with the
Odyssey.

> At any rate, the ONLY thing that is true about those two fleets is
> that they can ALWAYS be counted on for good crew, good service, and
> good diving, with very little variance, no matter what the location
> is.

YMOV

"Reef Fish" <Large_Nassau_Grouper@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123170469.706245.33030@g44g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
>
> Ross Garrett wrote:

>> I have never been able to put my finger on precisely the
>> reason Aggressor feel second notch to Dancers.
>
> Where did you get that idea.

It's just a feeling, and I don't actually know why it comes across that way.
There's really nothing definitive to support that feeling but Dancers in
general feel better. I know...it's crazy.

>> They are essentially the same
>> operations anymore (once one fleet makes a change the other follows suit
>> quickly) but for some reason the Dancer Fleet simply feels a bit more
>> integrated, a bit more polished and maybe a bit more consistent
>
> That part is true. But you have to understand the STRUCTURE of those
> operations. Peter runs the Dancer Fleet and OWNS the boats.

Sun Bank (who I think has now been bought) is primary owner of all his
boats. Divi owned his first boat, then he broke from them and went on his
own using Sun Bank as the lender, but as he got into some trouble in the mid
and late '90s they came on as partners. His situation isn't a lot different
than Wayne's anymore in that he runs the service portion while ownership
remains in others hands. He even did/does some type of boat management with
the Febrina in PNG and had some kind of agreement with the Telita as well.

> He can
> make decisions Wayne Hasson cannot because the Aggressor boats are
> franchised to different owners -- many of them locals in the dive
> locations. While Wayne tries to maintain the same overall QUALITY
> of the fleet (which he does well), he CANNOT make certain operational
> decisions Peter Hughes can on the Dancer Fleet.

It very well may be that Peter has more authority and latitude in his
arrangement with the boat owner than Wayne has with his franchise
agreements. That's information I am not privy to.

> I like both Fleets and have been on as many of one as the other.
>
>> Having said that, one of the better liveaboards I have ever been on was
>> the
>> Kona Aggressor, back in 1996-'97, before they switched boats.
>
> Kona diving is generally inferior to diving elsewhere. That's why
> they have smaller boats and can't fill them. I was on a Kona
> Aggressor about the same time you did. Decided that was the last
> time I would dive Hawaii on a liveaboard.

I don't specifically feel the diving was inferior to diving most elsewhere.
In fact I'd prefer diving Kona than most places in the Caribbean. The
turtles, mantas, dolphins, whales and invertebrate life alone make Kona more
attractive to me than most of the Caribbean. But I also found all the macro
particularly satisfying. The only problem with Kona is: I can get all that
stuff plus corals and schooling fish in other locales.

I was speaking more to the quality of the vessel and service. And in that
case the Kona Aggressor was one of the best I have ever been on. Small,
beautiful, rode well, fast, great food and great cabins and cabin service.
Really...just about everything that makes a liveaboard vessel great, the
Kona Aggressor had in sufficient amount.

Caveat: the Kona Aggressor I was on was moved to another location a few
years after our trip.

> The Truk Aggressor is the only one I will never dive because I don't
> dive in overhead environments and I dislike wrecks. I thought
> the Truk Aggressor is generally NOT well rated, compared to Thorfinn
> and some other operations there.

I couldn't say. I last dived the Truk Aggressor in 1995 -'94? and the boat
was very nice, but my favorite boat in Truk is the Odyssey. The only thing I
don't like about Truk diving was the particulate in the water.

> At any rate, the ONLY thing that is true about those two fleets is
> that they can ALWAYS be counted on for good crew, good service, and
> good diving, with very little variance, no matter what the location
> is.
>
> And that says a LOT.

No doubt and I didn't mean to imply Aggressors were deficient, but only that
they don't seem to convey to, or imprint on, the passengers (or me) the same
polish or completeness that Dancer boats do. Fact is, if I want to visit a
location that has both fleets....say Galapagos...my first choice between the
three boats would be the Dancer.

Like I said...I don't particulalry know why, but the Dancer Fleet just
presents better.....and that stays with me longer. Somehow Peter has managed
to create an impresson that his boats are a notch above. He did it with his
land-based shops a couple decades ago as well.

Dan Bracuk wrote:
> "Ross Garrett" <frederickrossgarrett@hotmail.com> pounded away at his
> keyboard resulting in:
>
> :No doubt and I didn't mean to imply Aggressors were deficient, but only that
> :they don't seem to convey to, or imprint on, the passengers (or me) the same
> olish or completeness that Dancer boats do. Fact is, if I want to visit a
> :location that has both fleets....say Galapagos...my first choice between the
> :three boats would be the Dancer.
>
> Can I change my original answer? One other factor I was thinking
> about was the departure port. My last Wind Dancer trip left from
> Grand Turk, which meant an additional flight.

But that's transient and seasonal! Peter has whale-watching season
and short diving seasons in that part of T&K. Of the half dozen or
so times I've dived the T&C on Dancers, they all originated from
Provo.

On second thought, the Dancers are OUT of T&C altogether now, when
I checked their website. The Wind Dancer has been in TOBAGO for
some time. Dived on it and had a flamewar with Chris Pflum (who
was on the same charter) against some travel agent Forest Aten.

>
> So I thought I would look up where each of the three boats left from.
>
> Aggressor leaves from Provo, that's good.
> Explorer also leaves from Provo, equally good.
> Peter Hughes no longer has a boat in T&C. Oh well.

That reminded me of an email I got from Peter Hughes that had been
sitting in my mailbox unread for two days.

He was promoting the new Ocean Dancer in the Maldives. But our
knowledgeable Asian diving friends on the Scuba-SE list were
more or less unanimous that Maldives are at best mediocre.

Also, the Fleet seemed to have shrunk and the Dancers are hitting
some secondary locations like Granada and the Grenadines.

-- Bob.

"Reef Fish" <Large_Nassau_Grouper@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123197513.011086.25970@g43g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...

> He was promoting the new Ocean Dancer in the Maldives. But our
> knowledgeable Asian diving friends on the Scuba-SE list were
> more or less unanimous that Maldives are at best mediocre.

The Maldives is some 1,200 islands (at least before the recent tsunami)
scattered around some 120,000 square miles of ocean. There is some fabulous
diving in the Maldives to be accessed by a cruise boat. Most people's
experience there is from land based operations and those sites have been
diminished for some time. I wouldn't doubt Dancer's ability to find some
great diving in remote areas of the archipeligo.

> Also, the Fleet seemed to have shrunk and the Dancers are hitting
> some secondary locations like Granada and the Grenadines.

Hughes will be sending Komodo Dancer to Raja Ampat soon, and I think I read
that Wayne was in discussions, or maybe concluded them, to send an Aggressor
to Raja Ampat as well. Both good moves because that is the best diving I
have done in 20 years. Somewhat tough if the tidal currents are not
calculated accurately for the dive times, but a place as magical as
Galapagos was in the early 80's, although for different reasons. Once in the
water at Raja Ampat you know you are in a special place that will not be
special for long.

It has always confused me somewhat that Wayne has avoided Indonesia and PNG.
Do you have any idea why?

Ross Garrett wrote:
> "Reef Fish" <Large_Nassau_Grouper@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1123197513.011086.25970@g43g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
>
> > He was promoting the new Ocean Dancer in the Maldives. But our
> > knowledgeable Asian diving friends on the Scuba-SE list were
> > more or less unanimous that Maldives are at best mediocre.
>
> The Maldives is some 1,200 islands (at least before the recent tsunami)
> scattered around some 120,000 square miles of ocean. There is some fabulous
> diving in the Maldives to be accessed by a cruise boat. Most people's
> experience there is from land based operations and those sites have been
> diminished for some time.

That's certainly true. The Red Sea and Maldive divers are almost
exclusively landbased.

> I wouldn't doubt Dancer's ability to find some
> great diving in remote areas of the archipeligo.

Not necessarily. Certainly possible. That was what Peter was hoping
to find some undiscovered jewels in Tobago. He found a 30 ft layer
of silt during the rainy season instead.
>
> > Also, the Fleet seemed to have shrunk and the Dancers are hitting
> > some secondary locations like Granada and the Grenadines.
>
> Hughes will be sending Komodo Dancer to Raja Ampat soon, and I think I read
> that Wayne was in discussions, or maybe concluded them, to send an Aggressor
> to Raja Ampat as well. Both good moves because that is the best diving I
> have done in 20 years. Somewhat tough if the tidal currents are not
> calculated accurately for the dive times, but a place as magical as
> Galapagos was in the early 80's, although for different reasons. Once in the
> water at Raja Ampat you know you are in a special place that will not be
> special for long.
>
> It has always confused me somewhat that Wayne has avoided Indonesia and PNG.
> Do you have any idea why?

No idea. Foreign franchises are always tricky. It's a combination
of politics and finding the right boat owners.

-- Bob.