Re: ESA depths ?

Jim.Greenlee@cc.gatech.edu wrote

> I have done approximately the same number of dives *without* a Spare
> Air, and I have never encountered a situation where I could have or
> would have used one.

Ummm, never encountered a situation where you "could" have used one? Try
this one on for size. You descend on a wreck to find somebody frantically
waving their arm through a port too small for them to escape through.
They're trapped in the wreck and can't find their way out. They're
beginning to run low on gas and have a deco obligation to boot. You have
one tank with a long and short hose. Lou has one tank with normal length
hoses (at least that's what he had when I last saw him) and a Spare Air.
Which one of you is most likely to save the person's life?

Far fetched? Maybe, but it's pretty much the scenario that was included on
a recent edition of one of the dive magazines. No, I don't know which one,
nor do I care.

> This is too poor to even qualify as a Stroke Alert. I think we may have
> to invent a whole new category for you.

Yeah, besides, he doesn't wear jet fins either. Actually, Lou is a pretty
good diver. He'd be right at home on any of our Boynton trips.

Lee

Jim.Greenlee@cc.gatech.edu wrote

> >Strokon.(tm)
>
> Actually, I thought of that, but in this case I believe that even
> strokon is too good.

I think you may find that Lou is more than slightly smarter than the average
bear. One should be careful how one characterizes others, at least until
you've met them.

Lee

In article <cqs3b.15545$jY2.2166@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink .net>,
leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com says...
>
>Jim.Greenlee@cc.gatech.edu wrote
>
>> I have done approximately the same number of dives *without* a Spare
>> Air, and I have never encountered a situation where I could have or
>> would have used one.
>
>Ummm, never encountered a situation where you "could" have used one? Try
>this one on for size. You descend on a wreck to find somebody frantically
>waving their arm through a port too small for them to escape through.
>They're trapped in the wreck and can't find their way out. They're
>beginning to run low on gas and have a deco obligation to boot. You have
>one tank with a long and short hose. Lou has one tank with normal length
>hoses (at least that's what he had when I last saw him) and a Spare Air.
>Which one of you is most likely to save the person's life?
>

Neither.

"Lou Vallone" <LouVallone@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> I know how much other larger ponies cost.

At LeisurePro, there's no cost penalty...they're all $75 a pop.


> I posited a fact from my life and log books - I have carried my Spare Air on
> approximately 800 dives. I have yet to see someone tell me how many dives
> they have carried their larger ponies at whatever price they paid so that
> there is a comparable cost comparison.

I've carried my pony on enough dives such that its "per dive" cost is
somewhere under a buck. As to exactly by how much, that's not important
to me, as its down in the fiscal "noise" level. Does this help?


> ... In the contexts that I most often dive - recreational dives in
> resort areas in open water conditions - in my more than 25 years of diving
> I have observed less than a dozen instances in which I have seen another
> diver equipped with a pony larger than my Spare Air.

Yes, ponies are fairly rare in warmwater resort setting. But full
facemasks are also rare. And UW scooters. And Spare Airs, for that
matter.



> More real life experiences from my logs:
>
> 3. I have retrieved a dropped light from 30 fsw using only the Spare Air (I
> had doffed my equipment before dropping the light overboard.) About 2
> minutes total bottom time.
> ...
> I reiterate: I have not speculated about these things - I have done them.
> Could have there been other alternatives? Arguably. That is not my point. I
> consider the amount of money, perhaps $400 US over the past couple of
> decades, that I invested in my Spare Air an economical outlay. A bargain,
> even.

There are many people who have done freedives of that duration and depth
without any air supply, including myself. Equipment cost = zero.



> Like the man said: "Ya pays yer money, Ya takes yer choice."

Sure. And for the same money, there are systems that can be argued to
provide better chances.

For example, older SA's were known to have leaking "shortcomings".
With your many years of carrying one, then you've run into these
problems:

a) Found it empty/low during predive chec & did an 'unscheduled' refill
b) Found it empty/low but carried it without refilling for a dive or two
c) Found it empty/low and left it behind because you didn't refill it
d) Carried it on the dive, to later discover that it was was empty/low

Curious: how many times did each of these failure modes apply?



-hh

H. Huntzinger wrote

> > 3. I have retrieved a dropped light from 30 fsw using only the Spare Air
(I
> > had doffed my equipment before dropping the light overboard.) About 2
> > minutes total bottom time.

> There are many people who have done freedives of that duration and depth
> without any air supply, including myself. Equipment cost = zero.

Bad example. It's pretty obvious this was a post dive recovery. Unless you
maintained an ascent rate of 30 feet per minute, your freedive for equipment
idea is soemthing many of us would consider unsafe. The nitrogen in your
body after a dive does not become less of a risk in a quick ascent without a
tank on your back than it is in a quick ascent with one on your back . . .
or in you mough.

> For example, older SA's were known to have leaking "shortcomings".
> With your many years of carrying one, then you've run into these
> problems:

> a) Found it empty/low during predive chec & did an 'unscheduled' refill
> b) Found it empty/low but carried it without refilling for a dive or two
> c) Found it empty/low and left it behind because you didn't refill it
> d) Carried it on the dive, to later discover that it was was empty/low
> Curious: how many times did each of these failure modes apply?

Spare Airs aren't the only devices that ever leaked. The same risk exists
for any redundant gas supply. I can't guess what the frequency is for the
relative options, but see no reason why it should be more or less for one
than the other. A diver concerned enough to carry a redundant gas supply
ought to be concerned enough to check it before leaving the house.

Lee

"H. Huntzinger" <recscuba@huntzinger.com> wrote >
> I've carried my pony on enough dives such that its "per dive" cost is
> somewhere under a buck. As to exactly by how much, that's not important
> to me, as its down in the fiscal "noise" level. Does this help?
>
>

Yes it does help - it is the precise response I was looking for to compare
to my experience. If I were to be in a position that I carried a larger
pony often enough to bring it to a buck a dive, I would consider that
economical. In fact, maybe even more economical than my half a buck for the
Spare Air. However, since I fly to all my dive destinations, I would not
ship a 16 cf pony, for example. With my Spare Air, I simply take it apart
and pack it in my checked luggage. Have never had a problem with baggage
checks, either (so far.)


> Yes, ponies are fairly rare in warmwater resort setting. But full
> facemasks are also rare. And UW scooters. And Spare Airs, for that
> matter.
>
>

In my experience, I have seen Spare Air on at least one or more other divers
in every trip.


> There are many people who have done freedives of that duration and depth
> without any air supply, including myself. Equipment cost = zero.
>

I don't snorkle or free dive. I only scuba.


>
>
> > Like the man said: "Ya pays yer money, Ya takes yer choice."
>
> Sure. And for the same money, there are systems that can be argued to
> provide better chances.
>

Precisely. I don't try to belittle or talk someone out of their choice. I
respect it and even am open to hearing their reasons for the sake of my own
education. I expect the same courtesy in return. (Without much success, at
least in this forum, however.)

> For example, older SA's were known to have leaking "shortcomings".
> With your many years of carrying one, then you've run into these
> problems:
>
> a) Found it empty/low during predive chec & did an 'unscheduled' refill

Several times. Perhaps as much as 10%. No problem topping it off, however,
since I keep the adapter in my dry bag and use my tank to top off the Spare
Air. Yes, I do check it before each dive.

> b) Found it empty/low but carried it without refilling for a dive or two

Nope, always have topped it off.

> c) Found it empty/low and left it behind because you didn't refill it

About 4 times, because it would not retain a fill. Twice on away trips it
developed problems that had to be fixed on while on the trip - temporarily.
Once (in January on Bonaire) Bruce Bowker (sp.) took it apart and we
couldn't get it back together again. Upon returning home, I sent it off each
time to the company who repaired the leak at a reasonable price. (Actually,
as far as I can tell, they really didn't repair the problem. Each time I
believe I received a whole new regulator segment and only got the original
tank part back.)

> d) Carried it on the dive, to later discover that it was was empty/low
>


Empty - never. Low - several occasions, maybe half a dozen. I have found the
device to be dependable in general, but all equipment has a failure rate
over time and usage. The problems with my Spare Air usually manifested as a
slow leak, which I could usually verify by submerging and seeing the
bubbles. By the same token, checking my log, over the years I have had more
trouble with my SPGs - leakage in the gauge, bubbling from the hose,
miscalibration and stuck needles - than I have had with my Spare Air.
Although I always have annual maintenance done, averaging close to 60 dives
a year recently, I have had to replace my SPG twice, and hoses 3 times.
Perhaps having to pack it in my luggage might have something to do with the
stress on the instrument and hoses.

> Curious: how many times did each of these failure modes apply?


Nothing lasts forever. But that is endemic to relying on any mechanical
apparati.

BTW, my gratitude to you for intelligent responses, questions, and a
productive atmosphere of discussion. How refreshing.


--
But then again, what do I know?

Lou Vallone

LouVallone@aol.com

http://members.aol.com/LouVallone

In article <sYl4b.10458$EW1.1828@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink .net>,
"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote:

> H. Huntzinger wrote
>
> > > 3. I have retrieved a dropped light from 30 fsw using only the Spare Air
> (I
> > > had doffed my equipment before dropping the light overboard.) About 2
> > > minutes total bottom time.
>
> > There are many people who have done freedives of that duration and depth
> > without any air supply, including myself. Equipment cost = zero.
>
> Bad example. It's pretty obvious this was a post dive recovery. Unless you
> maintained an ascent rate of 30 feet per minute, your freedive for equipment
> idea is soemthing many of us would consider unsafe.

Good point. But it also just means that the job can be relegated to the
diveboat's DM who sat out the first dive

In any event, while we may choose to use a certain tool a certain way
for convenience, it doesn't make sense to plan to carry it for that
express purpose: when it doesn't really take that much more effort to
put your gear back on, using a $200 specialty tool instead may be
slightly more convenient, but it isn't required.



-hh

"H. Huntzinger" <recscuba@huntzinger.com> wrote in message
news:recscuba-B57A43.08361901092003@east.giganews.com...
> In article <sYl4b.10458$EW1.1828@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink .net>,
> "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > H. Huntzinger wrote
> >
> > > > 3. I have retrieved a dropped light from 30 fsw using only the Spare
Air
> > (I
> > > > had doffed my equipment before dropping the light overboard.) About
2
> > > > minutes total bottom time.
> >
> > > There are many people who have done freedives of that duration and
depth
> > > without any air supply, including myself. Equipment cost = zero.
> >
> > Bad example. It's pretty obvious this was a post dive recovery. Unless
you
> > maintained an ascent rate of 30 feet per minute, your freedive for
equipment
> > idea is soemthing many of us would consider unsafe.
>
> Good point. But it also just means that the job can be relegated to the
> diveboat's DM who sat out the first dive
>
> In any event, while we may choose to use a certain tool a certain way
> for convenience, it doesn't make sense to plan to carry it for that
> express purpose: when it doesn't really take that much more effort to
> put your gear back on, using a $200 specialty tool instead may be
> slightly more convenient, but it isn't required.

Actually, I kind of liked the example. It's one of the few times I wished I
had a Spare Air. I dropped my favorite lobster snare in a dive off the
Tortugas. When I discovered I had lost it, I dropped down to about 30 feet,
where I could see the bottom pretty clearly and swam directly into the
current. Sure enough, I saw my snare, about 50 feet below . . . just as I
ran out of gas. I remember thinking, if only I had a Spare Air, I could get
my snare back. Then I headed for the surface, milking the little gas
remaining to extend my ascent time as much as possible. Since I've not been
able to replace the snare, I find myself increasingly envious of Lou's Spare
Air.

Since this was a drift dive and the boat was picking somebody else up at the
time, I didn't really have a chance to send the DM after my snare, even if
she would have gone in to retreive it for me.

Lee

"H. Huntzinger" <recscuba@huntzinger.com>

> A small pony weighs out at 8-10lbs in your checked baggage, with which
> the new lower baggage weight allowance on some carriers is beginning to
> be a dent. In any case, it doesn't need to be shipped ahead, as the DOT
> & ICAO regulations for transporting a Pony via commercial air carrier
> are identical to what's required for a Spare Air. The details are here:
>
> http://www.webspan.net/~hummer/flyingpony.html
>

I take the Spare Air apart, wrap the regulator piece in a T-shirt for
protection, and affix a Saran wrap cover on the tank part, since it is now
just a metal container that is open and empty, and the cover protects it
from contamination. I place the two pieces in different sections of the
luggage. So far, I have not been questioned on it. Sometimes it just passes
the scan. Sometimes my luggage has been opened, and no comment made. It
seems that by doing this, I obviate (at least as far as the inspectors are
concerned) the rules for ponies. I can't imagine doing that with a larger,
valve-sealed pony. And at about 1 pound, it doesn't throw my weighting off.


>
>
> > In my experience, I have seen Spare Air on at least one or more other
divers
> > in every trip.
>
> Wow. I'd say that I see a Spare Air maybe every 3rd or 4th trip, tops.
>
>

I resisted two or three snappy quips as a comeback, and instead thought
about this. Perhaps it is a matter of awareness:

1. My rescue training leads me to look over and take note of the kit of
everyone who is going to be in the water the same time as I.

2. Since I carry SA, I am particularly aware of it when another has it. I
might need it from someone else, for example.

3. I also like to pay attention to what others are using, in case I have
read about something and am able to take the opportunity to get a first hand
opinion from someone who actually is using it. It may lead to me using such
an item.



> It sounds like your "frequency of refill due to leak" is very roughly
> similar to the frequency with which a pony needs to be topped off
> because you'll consume a bit of air every time that you install its
> regulator.
>

I do not find it unduly burdensome to top of the SA occassionally.

> I've had some problems with my console over the years, although for me,
> it was the 'max depth' needle sticking and creeping in the console's
> depth gage, not the SPG proper. This could also be a "brand" issue, in
> that some SPG's/consoles are sure to be better quality than
> others...what brand was this?

The one that flooded was part of a console that I purchased from Parkway.
The one that the needle stuck on was part of a console that I purchased from
Performance divers. Both were manufactured by Scuba Pro I think. When the
tech took apart the one to check the needle, he cracked the lens of the SPG.
I accepted a Suunto SPG as a replacement, and abandoned the console, using
only an SPG from that point on. That Suunto began to leak after hundreds of
dives, and the tech when he tried to service it said that the chrome on the
inner part of the swivel had worn away. In effect, I had worn the thing out.
This year I replaced it with another Suunto. The hoses were all generic ones
carried by my shop, no brand name apparent on them.

I am a little leery whenever something goes awry on an SPG. I have twice
seen a high pressure hose blow u/w - on others. There is much confusion and
turmoil, and the gas depletes very quickly. I would like to avoid being in
such a situation myself.



--
But then again, what do I know?

Lou Vallone

LouVallone@aol.com

http://members.aol.com/LouVallone