Re: ESA depths ?

<nospam@all.please.net> wrote in message
news:bhf1vj$2e4$1@cdm-66-63-26-nacd.cox-internet.com...
> Lee Bell <leebell@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > <nospam@all.please.net> wrote in message
> > _news:bh7hfp$d4h$1@cdm-66-63-26-nacd.cox-internet.com_...
> > > In <bgivrg$qfn$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> "Lee Bell" wrote:
> > > > Sven wrote
> > > >
> > > > > Other than the training ESA I've never had to do one.
> > > > > What are the depths from which an ESA can be executed,
> disreagrding
> > > > > problems with getting bent ?
> > > >
> > > > Many years ago, I did one from 128 feet and did not get bent. Not
> everybody
> > > > can expect to be so lucky, but when the choice is bent or dead,
> it's easy to
> > > > chose.
> > >
> > > Would you have preferred to have had a few breaths from an alternate
> > > source
> > > at the time?
> >
> > Yep. While I think the cost/benefit for a Spare Air makes little
> sense, I'm
> > not one who believes they are useless. I'm just one who thinks that,
> if you
> > need a bailout, there are better choices.
>
> Agreed; there are solutions optimized to different criteria.
>
> In those moments during the ESA, what dollar amount would you have put on
> a
> dozen breaths?

At the time, I would not have assigned a value. I was a bit busy saving my
ass. I don't recall a lot about the ascent except it was as fast as I could
arrange. Since I was a water safety instructor and the current out of the
cavern was with me, you may assume that was considerably faster tan 30 feet
per minute. 8^)

I've said it before and still believe it. I think the main purpose of a
spare air, for me, would be to get me to my buddy in case of emergency.
Assuming I have a buddy, which I didn't that day more than 30 years ago,
that only takes a few breaths. While I'd certainly like to have one if I
ever needed to do another OOA ascent unassisted, I would not and have not
chose a Spare Air for that purpose. Then again, I still chose no redundant
air supply for my no deco diving.

Lee

> > At the time, I would not have assigned a value.
>
> Do you mean your answer is "priceless?"

No, I mean I was too busy saving my ass to spend time thinking about how
much I would pay to have enough gas to make it a non issue.

nospam@all.please.net wrote

> > > > At the time, I would not have assigned a value.
> > >
> > > Do you mean your answer is "priceless?"
> >
> > No, I mean I was too busy saving my ass to spend time thinking about
> how
> > much I would pay to have enough gas to make it a non issue.
>
> Suppose you had enough spare brain power to have expended on the
> thinking,
> but not enough to predict the future.
>
> What dollar amount would you have place on a dozen breaths?

Depends on whether magic was also an option. There are too many ifs in your
question. The fact is, at that particular moment, there was only one focus.
Later, when my life was no longer on the line, I considered the options I
might have arranged for and decided that the best for me was to avoid the
situation in the future. I still don't use backup.

If Spare Air was inexpensive, around $100, I'd have one. It's an
alternative to no backup at all that I think I could find a way to carry
conveniently, as a "just in case" convenience. If I figured I really needed
a backup, I'd get a real one, something that would get me out of a wreck and
allow a bit of deco, for example.

If you absolutely must assign a value to the Spare Air, the most it would
have been worth is the cost of the smallest alternative and that's only at
that moment.

Lee

"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:bhlais$vl8$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> nospam@all.please.net wrote
>
> > > No, I mean I was too busy saving my ass to spend time thinking about
> > how
> > > much I would pay to have enough gas to make it a non issue.
> >
> > What dollar amount would you have place on a dozen breaths?
>
> If Spare Air was inexpensive, around $100, I'd have one. It's an
> alternative to no backup at all that I think I could find a way to carry
> conveniently, as a "just in case" convenience. If I figured I really
needed
> a backup, I'd get a real one, something that would get me out of a wreck
and
> allow a bit of deco, for example.
>
> If you absolutely must assign a value to the Spare Air, the most it would
> have been worth is the cost of the smallest alternative and that's only at
> that moment.


Regarding the economics. In my case, I paid $200 US for my Spare Air
originally, and have over the years maybe spent a maximum of another $200 on
maintenance and service. I have carried it on approximately 800 dives. That
amortizes to about 50 cents US per dive to have a 3.4% (compared to a
standard aluminum 80 @ 3000 psi) reserve of gas and an independent
regulator. That's rated at 28 breaths at the surface.

I use my Spare Air (to bleed off the pressure before packing to go home) on
every trip on my last dive. In July, I got 16 breaths swimming horizontally
at 40 fsw. Works for me.

I consider that economical. YMMV.


--
But then again, what do I know?

Lou Vallone

LouVallone@aol.com

http://members.aol.com/LouVallone

"Lou Vallone" <LouVallone@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > nospam@all.please.net wrote
> > >
> > > What dollar amount would you have place on a dozen breaths?
> >
> > If Spare Air was inexpensive, around $100, I'd have one...
>
> Regarding the economics. In my case, I paid $200 US for my Spare Air
> originally, and have over the years maybe spent a maximum of another $200 on
> maintenance and service. I have carried it on approximately 800 dives. That
> amortizes to about 50 cents US per dive to have a 3.4% (compared to a
> standard aluminum 80 @ 3000 psi) reserve of gas and an independent
> regulator. That's rated at 28 breaths at the surface.
>
> I use my Spare Air (to bleed off the pressure before packing to go home) on
> every trip on my last dive. In July, I got 16 breaths swimming horizontally
> at 40 fsw. Works for me.
>
> I consider that economical. YMMV.

In contrast, an AL13 pony (a 16% reserve) typically costs just over $100
on sale, and it recycles your old regulator which you're going to keep
around as a spare after you upgrade to a new one anyway.

And instead of counting time in breaths, you can count in minutes: a
SAC of 0.5ft^3/min will get over 10 full minutes out of it at 40fsw.

YMMV, but this says to me that a Spare Air is extremely overpriced at
its current $200 MSRP...I'd place its market value at closer to $50,
particularly since they're inherently more expensive to maintain than a
standard regulator (assuming equal quality in maintenance).



-hh

"H. Huntzinger" <recscuba@huntzinger.com> wrote in message
news:recscuba-F323A8.10480424082003@east.giganews.com...

> YMMV, but this says to me that a Spare Air is extremely overpriced at
> its current $200 MSRP...I'd place its market value at closer to $50,
> particularly since they're inherently more expensive to maintain than a
> standard regulator (assuming equal quality in maintenance).

If you can get one free, they make great toys for the kids in the tub.

Scott

On 25 Aug 2003 00:08:31 GMT, nospam@all.please.net wrote:

>In <recscuba-F323A8.10480424082003@east.giganews.com> "H. Huntzinger"
>wrote:
>> "Lou Vallone" <LouVallone@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>What would you pay for the breath(s) of air that would save your life (or
>health) as your vision tunnels and the ability to resist breathing water
>wanes?

I'd pay the boat fee for my buddy and dive as a team. If I'm OOA a reg
will be in my face pronto. Gas will be calculated so we can get home
before we leave the boat. Kind of nice.
Ya dive solo, get the pony, or better yet learn to dive doubles
properly.

Laser

> You continue to do the cost/benefit analysis at the wrong place and time.
>
> What would you pay for the breath(s) of air that would save your life (or
> health) as your vision tunnels and the ability to resist breathing water
> wanes?

Understand that we think it is you who is doing the cost benefit analysis at
the wrong time. The time to plan for emergencies is before they happen. So
is the time to compare the relative benefits and the cost of options. For
your question to be valid, you have to ask the next one too. What would you
pay for the breaths of a larger pony that would save your life when a Spare
Air proves to be insifficient?

Lee

nospam@all.please.net wrote:
> >
> > In contrast, an AL13 pony (a 16% reserve) typically costs just over
> > $100 on sale, and it recycles your old regulator which you're going
> > to keep around as a spare after you upgrade to a new one anyway.
>
> Nice try. The cost of a regulator (and perhaps a spg) must be
> considered.

Well, if you don't have a spare regulator, you can pick up a cheap one
that's equal or better than the one built into a Spare Air quite
inexpensively. For example, LeisurePro offers the Mares MR12 for
$110...and Ponies for $75, which at $185 total, is within $10 of their
discounted price for a Spare Air.

And this isn't unique: a not-quite-local-enough-to-me diveshop
(Dosil's) frequently advertises a Pony w/Regulator w/"Tamer" package
for $200, complete.

Wanting an SPG is a good idea, particularly in light of just how
useless the Spare Air's pin indicator is. In fact, SA now sells a
replacement dial-type gage as a $55 option. A standard SPG costs as
little as $60 (and has more capability), or you might be able to find
a button gage for as little as $40 for your pony (check out Sherwood).
As such, the SPG arguement does not make for any meaningful price
differentiation.



> > And instead of counting time in breaths, you can count in minutes: a
> > SAC of 0.5ft^3/min will get over 10 full minutes out of it at 40fsw.
>
> Yes, more air is better. A few breaths are better than part of one or
> none.

I agree, and this is why I no longer say that a Spare Air is
completely worthless: its just that versus other alternatives, its a
poor value.


> > YMMV, but this says to me that a Spare Air is extremely overpriced at
> > its current $200 MSRP...I'd place its market value at closer to $50,
> > particularly since they're inherently more expensive to maintain than a
> > standard regulator (assuming equal quality in maintenance).
>
> You continue to do the cost/benefit analysis at the wrong place and time.

During times of direst need is the wrong time to do a C/B because the
definition of 'benefit' approaches infinite because of the time
element.

This means that even major variations in cost become irrelevant, which
is why the answer you're looking for is 'Everything'. This phenomina
is actually related to what is known as "The Call Girl Principle",
which states that a value of services diminishes rapidly after the
services are performed.

Now assume that you just spent all of your savings...$15,000...for a
Spare Air to get you to the surface. And let's say that you only had
to use 10 breaths to do so, which leaves 5 remaining breaths in the
bottle. Now much is it now worth? Certainly not $5000!


> What would you pay for the breath(s) of air that would save your life (or
> health) as your vision tunnels and the ability to resist breathing water
> wanes?


A better question would be to ask if the OOA diver was given the
choice between grabbing a Spare Air or a Pony, which would he more
likely want? And you've already answered that question:

> Yes, more air is better.




-hh

nospam@all.please.net wrote:

[....]
>
> There is really no way to gauge the impact of a decision until one is in
> the moment of consequence.

So, you're saying that you don't hook up the seatbelt until just
before you need it? Interesting Darwinian theorem.

[....]


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"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know." -- Richard Wilbur