Force Fins forces Rodale's Scuba Diving to pay for scuba equipment ratings scam

de Valois <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote:
>>The link and articles on the Force Fin products are no longer on their
>>website. A $9,000 settlement was reached on the $10,000 award.
>>
>
>By your own admission, Susanne, it was not an "award". The $9,000, which was
>$1,000 less than you sued for on that complaint, was the award.
>
>And you failed on four other major points. Why don't you admit that you filed a
>frivolous lawsuit that the judge tossed the major complaints out on, and
>Rodale's settled because they would have paid their lawyers more than $9G?

geez, now you're playing a lawyer?

That those 4 were dismissed for statute of limitations suggests instead
that Rodale's escaped on a legal technicality, rather than on any merit.

And paying 90% of an honor reward is pretty bad. To me, it's a 90% admission
that they had no honor. Otherwise, I'd have held out to put Bob Evans out
of business. Rodale's has deeper pockets. They print lots of fluffy ad
driven magazines.


--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

That's a lot of stuff to analyze. It is tough to separate out what
was said by the "court" and what is being said by you or other Force
representatives, but at the end you wrote...


....."Statements made by Dane Farnum, Publisher, Rodale's Scuba Diving
regarding
the
suit conclude with the statement that "Rodale's Scuba Diving will
continue
to
publish the only comparative scuba equipment evaluations available in
the
United States." The evaluations are not characterized as
"independent",
"objective" or "unbiased".....


The statement above appears to be of your own words, not that of a
finding of the court. Did the court find at any point that Rodale's
evaluations were "biased", "non-objective" and "dependant"- whatever
that means. Apparently the court did find Rodale's didn't submit
evidence they weren't (if I read your comments correctly), but the
court didn't state that they were.

The only things I could find as aggrieveing towards Force in your
statement below is their use of the "allegedly unfair" link (which
indeed does sound unfair), which they did later remove, and the
comment about the marketing of the Split Foil Force.

I haven't read the huge 120+ response long thread below, but I have
seen this and threads with someone with apparent links to Force
involved on several other message boards. Sounds like sour grapes to
me.

Let's face it. I read the initial Rodale's report on split fins, they
reported at the time they had been trying to get Force fins submitted
for reviews for years, and only bought them after Apollo presented a
pair of their own fins for review and tests. Force fins apparently
tested superior to all fins in the test, except the split fins from
Apollo. The market jumped for those which placed at the top of
Rodale's test results...not the one which would have likely topped the
test in previous years if they had only submitted their product for
tests... Opportunites lost, perhaps Force would have cleaned up if
only they had participated willingly in previous years.

later

Steve




> Your interpretation is wrong. The case was never heard on its merits. The
> settlement was negotiated in Court, not to avoid Court. Here are the facts.
> Judge for yourself.
>
> On October 15, 2001, Bob Evans Designs, Inc., makers of the Force Fin, filed
> a
> Complaint against Rodale, Inc., Publishers of Rodale's Scuba Diving
> Magazine,
> alleging Defamation, Trade Libel, Intentional Interference of Prospective
> Business Advantage, Unfair Competition and Breach of Contract.
>
> A summary of facts supporting the allegations are as follows:
>
> In articles published in Rodale's Scuba Diving statements were made implying
> that Bob Evans Designs, Inc. was doing something wrong in marketing their
> Split Foil Force Fin without license from Nature's Wings. Rodale had been
> previously notified by Bob Evans Designs, Inc. that the technology and
> design
> of its Split Foil Force Fin are found in its own patents that predate the
> others.
>
> Rodale, Inc. reported tests of Force Fin products as independent, objective
> and unbiased, when in fact no data or documentation existed to support
> results
> of fin tests on the Force Fin or Extra Force Fin. Nature's Wings paid the
> then-Director of Rodale's ScubaLab and author of the articles for
> approximately four years of fin tests. Some of the tests were developed by
> Nature's Wings.
>
> Rodale, Inc. used the "Force Fin" trademark on their website to redirect
> readers to web pages soliciting licenses to Nature's Wings patents; pages
> that
> said nothing about Force Fin products.
>
> Rodale, Inc. offered a $10,000 award to anyone who could find any editorial
> that contains lies, misrepresentations or other distortions as proof of
> bias.
> Bob Evans Designs, Inc. submitted their proof. Rodale, Inc. refused to pay.
>
> Statements surrounding the settlement circulated by Rodale leave out the
> fact
> that the case was never heard on its merits. On February 14, 2003, the
> Honorable John F. Walter, United States District Judge granted Rodale's
> Motion
> for Summary Judgment finding "that Bob Evans' [first four causes of action]
> all arise out of alledgedly defamatory statements made by Rodale and
> distributed to the public over one year prior to Bob Evans filing its
> complaint,... and are barred by California CCP $340(c)'s one year statute of
> limitations."
>
> In September 2003, members of the dive industry rallied to the support of
> Bob
> Evans Designs, Inc. and emailed their demand that Rodale remove the
> allegedly
> unfair link. Rodale responded by removing the link and all articles
> referencing Force Fin products.
>
> On October 13, 2003, before the Honorable Thomas P. Anderle, Judge, Superior
> Court of the County of Santa Barbara, a Court negotiated settlement was
> reached. In attendance for Bob Evans Designs, Inc. were its Officers, Robert
> B. Evans and Susanne E. Chess. In attendance for Rodale, Inc. was its
> Advertising Director, Debbie Edwards. Attorneys for each party were also
> present. A $9,000 settlement
> was reached on the $10,000 award.
>
> Statements made by Dane Farnum, Publisher, Rodale's Scuba Diving regarding
> the
> suit conclude with the statement that "Rodale's Scuba Diving will continue
> to
> publish the only comparative scuba equipment evaluations available in the
> United States." The evaluations are not characterized as "independent",
> "objective" or "unbiased".
>
> Truth prevailed and that's a win for everyone.
>
> Susanne Chess
> Force Fin
>
> "de Valois" <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote in message
> news:bpgot9012ib@drn.newsguy.com...
> > Force Fin left this mess on Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:25:16 -0800 for The Way to
> clean
> > up:
> > >
> > >
> > >The link and articles on the Force Fin products are no longer on their
> > >website. A $9,000 settlement was reached on the $10,000 award.
> > >
> >
> > By your own admission, Susanne, it was not an "award". The $9,000, which
> was
> > $1,000 less than you sued for on that complaint, was the award.
> >
> > And you failed on four other major points. Why don't you admit that you
> filed a
> > frivolous lawsuit that the judge tossed the major complaints out on, and
> > Rodale's settled because they would have paid their lawyers more than $9G?
> >
> > Tao te Carl
> > "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
> >
> > (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass
> question
> > here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
> >

"Force Fin" <info@forcefin.com> wrote in message
news:NEevb.7673$sb4.261@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> Are you talking about the OPS?
> http://www.forcefin.com/FF_PAGES/FF_Products/ops.htm
>
> Bob's putting it through the paces a bit longer. He's exclusively
supplying
> Jean Michel Cousteau and his team of divers at Oceans Futures Society.
Once
> we've got enough mileage in enough conditions, we'll release it in
general.
>
> We'll be auctioning pairs that have been on various expeditions signed by
> the expedition members, including Jean Michel Cousteau and Bob Evans as a
> fundraiser for Oceans Futures Society.
>
> Susanne Chess
> Force Fin
>

Hi Susanne,
These are the ones....I got to try a prototype of these...I liked them, but
I need a pair with longer and stiffer blades. Even at the max setting they
were too soft for someone who is used to competition level freedive fins (
but of course, this would "not" be 99% of scuba divers
I've used Esclapez Blue fins before, which used to be their softest
model--the one used by freedivers planning to be in the water for 8 hours
straight for a long contest----since I don't generally dive more than 3
hours, the spaghetti feel of the blue fins bothered me. Esclapez also made
the green fin ( quite a bit stiffer), and the black fins ( a great deal
stiffer). The greens were aimed more at deeper freediving for a shorter
duration--like 4 hours, and the blacks for 100 foot deep drops for maybe an
hour or 2. The black fins came closest for me, in providing me a comfortable
"push" platform, which I felt great using for up to 3 hours ( actual
duration of each fin use is still individualized to each person).
If a person matched their own muscle and aerobic fitness, with a model too
stiff for them, then cramping prior to the desired max duration would
probably occur.

Freedive fin companies have used this "mission oriented" model selection for
many years now..They don't say this model is for weak divers, and this one
is for highly fit divers--at least not for their standard models, of which
their will typically be 2 to 4 stiffness choices ( and of course, the
stiffer ones will be harder to load with muscle effort, and will then
"unload" much more forcefully, pushing the freediver faster and further
through the water from each single kick). The freedive manufacturers that
offer elite competition fins, "will" sometimes suggest that their top elite
fins "are only" for elite level athletes, as these will be tuned for someone
doing 1 hour or less duration, very deep freediving, and this will be aimed
at people who have adapted to very rigorous aerobic and weight based
training---or just a huge amount of time in the water kicking freedive fins
every day

The interesting thing is that companies like Scubapro, Mares, and the other
large scuba fin manufacturers, ignore the REALITY that this categorization
used by the freedive mfg's for duration use, is IDEAL for scuba use, as it
is an optimal way to help a person match their fitness with the flex
characteristics of a fin. Bob Evans and Force Fin have actually done this,
but kept the fitness characterizations "out of" the marketing, instead
positioning the progressively more aggressive fins as being for more
"advanced" divers.
Perhaps you guys are right, in that the scuba world is offended by fitness,
or suggestions that a diver should have it--and with this in mind, linking
the potential of the fins to a person who spends more time diving, might
well be the "safest" way to market this range of potentials. Personally, I
think you could let the dive shops in on this, and they could help "push"
the stiffer, more aggressive models on the people who are clearly more fit.
This is something I have NOT seen at local dive shops. And the complication
for this of course, is that a huge percentage of dive shops, are populated
with ego-challenged, doughnut eating divemaster and instructor types---and
these people combine poor fitness with macho mentalities---they would find
it tough to tell a diver that they should try an advanced fin if it is "too
advanced" for the divemaster/instructor. And the whole system starts to
break down, as the poor fitness levels and big egos destroy good advice.
Luckily their are good shops, good instructors, and even good coffee servers
, but there are not enough of them

The new fin you guys have adds a particularly cool dimension, in that it
allows a diver to actually increase or decrease the stiffness and push level
per kick, while in the water on a dive. As great as this feature is, for the
reasons talked about above, you really do need a version of this fin which
starts at the stiffest level of your existing fin, and goes far beyond.
This would be needed at the very least, for the elite competitive
freediving community. Certainly there are scuba divers which could enjoy
this as well.
If you guys want to be able to bump chests with the Omer C4's, or equivalent
state of the art freedive fins, then this is the path I'm hoping you will
take. Please relay this to Bob, in a nice way

Regards,
Dan Volker

No misinterpretation. You guys sued for defamation, but gee, how much defaming
could have gone on if you waited wayyyyyyyy past the statute of limitations to
sue? How much irreparable damage to your economic benefit could there have
possibly been, unless you expect us to believe that you had to scrape enough
sales together to pay a lawyer?

In short, you decided to file a frivolous lawsuit well after the fact, and the
judge said no way Jose.

Face it, Susanne, you trolled Rodale's, and got your hand bit.

Force Fin left this mess on Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:21:15 GMT for The Way to clean
up:
>
>Your interpretation is wrong. The case was never heard on its merits. The
>settlement was negotiated in Court, not to avoid Court. Here are the facts.
>Judge for yourself.
>
>On October 15, 2001, Bob Evans Designs, Inc., makers of the Force Fin, filed
>a
>Complaint against Rodale, Inc., Publishers of Rodale's Scuba Diving
>Magazine,
>alleging Defamation, Trade Libel, Intentional Interference of Prospective
>Business Advantage, Unfair Competition and Breach of Contract.
>
>A summary of facts supporting the allegations are as follows:
>
>In articles published in Rodale's Scuba Diving statements were made implying
>that Bob Evans Designs, Inc. was doing something wrong in marketing their
>Split Foil Force Fin without license from Nature's Wings. Rodale had been
>previously notified by Bob Evans Designs, Inc. that the technology and
>design
>of its Split Foil Force Fin are found in its own patents that predate the
>others.
>
>Rodale, Inc. reported tests of Force Fin products as independent, objective
>and unbiased, when in fact no data or documentation existed to support
>results
>of fin tests on the Force Fin or Extra Force Fin. Nature's Wings paid the
>then-Director of Rodale's ScubaLab and author of the articles for
>approximately four years of fin tests. Some of the tests were developed by
>Nature's Wings.
>
>Rodale, Inc. used the "Force Fin" trademark on their website to redirect
>readers to web pages soliciting licenses to Nature's Wings patents; pages
>that
>said nothing about Force Fin products.
>
>Rodale, Inc. offered a $10,000 award to anyone who could find any editorial
>that contains lies, misrepresentations or other distortions as proof of
>bias.
>Bob Evans Designs, Inc. submitted their proof. Rodale, Inc. refused to pay.
>
>Statements surrounding the settlement circulated by Rodale leave out the
>fact
>that the case was never heard on its merits. On February 14, 2003, the
>Honorable John F. Walter, United States District Judge granted Rodale's
>Motion
>for Summary Judgment finding "that Bob Evans' [first four causes of action]
>all arise out of alledgedly defamatory statements made by Rodale and
>distributed to the public over one year prior to Bob Evans filing its
>complaint,... and are barred by California CCP $340(c)'s one year statute of
>limitations."
>
>In September 2003, members of the dive industry rallied to the support of
>Bob
>Evans Designs, Inc. and emailed their demand that Rodale remove the
>allegedly
>unfair link. Rodale responded by removing the link and all articles
>referencing Force Fin products.
>
>On October 13, 2003, before the Honorable Thomas P. Anderle, Judge, Superior
>Court of the County of Santa Barbara, a Court negotiated settlement was
>reached. In attendance for Bob Evans Designs, Inc. were its Officers, Robert
>B. Evans and Susanne E. Chess. In attendance for Rodale, Inc. was its
>Advertising Director, Debbie Edwards. Attorneys for each party were also
>present. A $9,000 settlement
>was reached on the $10,000 award.
>
>Statements made by Dane Farnum, Publisher, Rodale's Scuba Diving regarding
>the
>suit conclude with the statement that "Rodale's Scuba Diving will continue
>to
>publish the only comparative scuba equipment evaluations available in the
>United States." The evaluations are not characterized as "independent",
>"objective" or "unbiased".
>
>Truth prevailed and that's a win for everyone.
>
>Susanne Chess
>Force Fin
>
>"de Valois" <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote in message
>news:bpgot9012ib@drn.newsguy.com...
>> Force Fin left this mess on Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:25:16 -0800 for The Way to
>clean
>> up:
>> >
>> >
>> >The link and articles on the Force Fin products are no longer on their
>> >website. A $9,000 settlement was reached on the $10,000 award.
>> >
>>
>> By your own admission, Susanne, it was not an "award". The $9,000, which
>was
>> $1,000 less than you sued for on that complaint, was the award.
>>
>> And you failed on four other major points. Why don't you admit that you
>filed a
>> frivolous lawsuit that the judge tossed the major complaints out on, and
>> Rodale's settled because they would have paid their lawyers more than $9G?
>>
>> Tao te Carl
>> "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
>>
>> (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass
>question
>> here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
>>
>
>

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif

Jason O'Rourke left this mess on Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:37:21 +0000 (UTC) for The
Way to clean up:
>
>de Valois <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote:
>>>The link and articles on the Force Fin products are no longer on their
>>>website. A $9,000 settlement was reached on the $10,000 award.
>>>
>>
>>By your own admission, Susanne, it was not an "award". The $9,000, which was
>>$1,000 less than you sued for on that complaint, was the award.
>>
>>And you failed on four other major points. Why don't you admit that you filed a
>>frivolous lawsuit that the judge tossed the major complaints out on, and
>>Rodale's settled because they would have paid their lawyers more than $9G?
>
>geez, now you're playing a lawyer?
>
>That those 4 were dismissed for statute of limitations suggests instead
>that Rodale's escaped on a legal technicality, rather than on any merit.

Hey, Factboy, if they were as badly damaged as they claim they were, why wait to
sue? Oh, wait, I know...they had to sell a few measly pair of fins and fire the
cleaning staff to pay for the cheap-suited lawyer they hired who blew the case
for them, right?

Pleaase, Jason, you're so willing to bite Rodale's, you've stopped being
objective. The judged tossed the first four charges out correctly, Rodale's
*knew* they'd be tossed, and so had to present not one whit of evidence proving
their charges. Sounds like a pretty reasonable strategy: why open your testing
process and procedures to examination unnecessarily?

>And paying 90% of an honor reward is pretty bad. To me, it's a 90% admission
>that they had no honor. Otherwise, I'd have held out to put Bob Evans out
>of business. Rodale's has deeper pockets. They print lots of fluffy ad
>driven magazines.
>

Yea, your biased mind might think that, I guess. On the other hand, their
lawyers could have said, "you know what? We're going to charge about $20,000 to
fight this charge and in the end, no one is going to be any the wiser about
whether Force Fins are as good or bad as you said they were, so it's probably
better to settle."

Happens all the time, Factboy. Surprised that fact hasn't sunk into your
paranoid little skull.

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif

Force Fin left this mess on Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:09:27 GMT for The Way to clean
up:
>

What's the matter, Susanne? My points make TOO much sense for you that you had
no quick answer fo them?

This is the Internet, babe. Get your act together before you run your mouth.

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif

<snip>
> Dan Volker wrote:
>
> The interesting thing is that companies like Scubapro, Mares, and the
other
> large scuba fin manufacturers, ignore the REALITY that this categorization
> used by the freedive mfg's for duration use, is IDEAL for scuba use, as it
> is an optimal way to help a person match their fitness with the flex
> characteristics of a fin. Bob Evans and Force Fin have actually done
this,
> but kept the fitness characterizations "out of" the marketing, instead
> positioning the progressively more aggressive fins as being for more
> "advanced" divers.
>> Regards,
> Dan Volker
>-------------------------------------------------------------

At the risk of incurring Dan Volker's usually unwarrranted and
considerable wrath I think it should be pointed out that the ScubaPro Twin
Jets DO come in three differing levels of stiffness. And yes Dan, there are
shops out there that will point this out to potential customers. And NO Dan
I am not trying to advertise for the above-mentioned company. And NO to any
of the other accusations you will undoubtedly heap on me for having a
difference of opinion or daring to hint that you might not have the very
last word on every subject.

"It is the wise man who begins to realize the depths of his own ignorance"

Bob

>

"Bob and Mary Beard" <beardm001@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:9BLvb.16998$y9.5018@twister.socal.rr.com...
> <snip>
> > Dan Volker wrote:
> >
> > The interesting thing is that companies like Scubapro, Mares, and the
> other
> > large scuba fin manufacturers, ignore the REALITY that this
categorization
> > used by the freedive mfg's for duration use, is IDEAL for scuba use, as
it
> > is an optimal way to help a person match their fitness with the flex
> > characteristics of a fin. Bob Evans and Force Fin have actually done
> this,
> > but kept the fitness characterizations "out of" the marketing, instead
> > positioning the progressively more aggressive fins as being for more
> > "advanced" divers.
> >> Regards,
> > Dan Volker
> >-------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At the risk of incurring Dan Volker's usually unwarrranted and
> considerable wrath I think it should be pointed out that the ScubaPro Twin
> Jets DO come in three differing levels of stiffness. And yes Dan, there
are
> shops out there that will point this out to potential customers. And NO
Dan
> I am not trying to advertise for the above-mentioned company. And NO to
any
> of the other accusations you will undoubtedly heap on me for having a
> difference of opinion or daring to hint that you might not have the very
> last word on every subject.
>

Thanks for the clarification Bob.
As to the "wrath" part, I guess I should apologize for the "tone" in my
recent postings which Karl has elicited.
Regards,
Dan V

The Force Fin has for many, many years been offered in different durometers,
or stiffness, Original, Pro and Tan Delta. With some of Bob Evans' new
fins, that Dan has tried, you can change the stiffness and/or blade dynamics
of the same blade while you are underwater and underway.

Susanne Chess
Force Fin

"Bob and Mary Beard" <beardm001@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:9BLvb.16998$y9.5018@twister.socal.rr.com...
> <snip>
> > Dan Volker wrote:
> >
> > The interesting thing is that companies like Scubapro, Mares, and the
> other
> > large scuba fin manufacturers, ignore the REALITY that this
categorization
> > used by the freedive mfg's for duration use, is IDEAL for scuba use, as
it
> > is an optimal way to help a person match their fitness with the flex
> > characteristics of a fin. Bob Evans and Force Fin have actually done
> this,
> > but kept the fitness characterizations "out of" the marketing, instead
> > positioning the progressively more aggressive fins as being for more
> > "advanced" divers.
> >> Regards,
> > Dan Volker
> >-------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At the risk of incurring Dan Volker's usually unwarrranted and
> considerable wrath I think it should be pointed out that the ScubaPro Twin
> Jets DO come in three differing levels of stiffness. And yes Dan, there
are
> shops out there that will point this out to potential customers. And NO
Dan
> I am not trying to advertise for the above-mentioned company. And NO to
any
> of the other accusations you will undoubtedly heap on me for having a
> difference of opinion or daring to hint that you might not have the very
> last word on every subject.
>
> "It is the wise man who begins to realize the depths of his own ignorance"
>
> Bob
>
> >
>
>

No insider information, I merely read both sides of the issue and can remember
what each side says, but Susanne, are you saying your information is somehow
tainted? That you're not disclosing the whole truth?

Force Fin left this mess on Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:31:24 GMT for The Way to clean
up:
>
>No. Just debating if I want to get into detailed discussions with someone
>who obviously has insider information, but does not to disclose who he is.
>
>Susanne Chess
>Force Fin
>
>"de Valois" <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote in message
>news:bpmom302d5i@drn.newsguy.com...
>> Force Fin left this mess on Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:09:27 GMT for The Way to
>clean
>> up:
>> >
>>
>> What's the matter, Susanne? My points make TOO much sense for you that you
>had
>> no quick answer fo them?
>>
>> This is the Internet, babe. Get your act together before you run your
>mouth.
>>
>> Tao te Carl
>> "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
>>
>> (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass
>question
>> here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
>>
>
>

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif