Equipment choices

I'm planning a dive trip to Hawaii this June and I'm thinking about
upgrading some of my gear before the trip (sounds like a good excuse,
anyway :).

I've got two wetsuits right now, a 2mm shorty and a 7mm farmer john.
From what I've read about the waters in Hawaii, most people seem to
recommend a 2 or 3 mm full suit. Being from Tucson, I'm not
particularly cold tolerant, but I'm sure that farmer john is overkill,
so I'm thinking about getting a 3mm full suit and possibly layering it
with the shorty if need be (I would bring both and see what works out
best in this case). In particular I'm considering the Akona 3 mm full
suit vs. the Blue Reef 3mm full suit vs. the O'Neill Reactor 3/2 full
suit.

Can anyone offer any comments about the fit, comfort or quality of any
of these three suits? I'm 6'1", 175#, I have brown eyes and like short
walks on the beach leading to warm waters and diving. (sorry, I got
carried away in the description).

The other thing I'm thinking of upgrading is my BC. The one I have is
*very* old school, and although it's served me well in the past there
are several things I've come to dislike about it other than it's
appearance. Number one would be that it's not weight integrated, and
number two that it's a jacket style and not a back inflate style. I've
had the opportunity to try out a few different newer weight integrated
jacket style BCs and one weight integrated back inflate style (a
friends' ScubaPro Knighthawk). Of these, I liked the Knighthawk best,
but was put off by the sticker shock when I saw the price tag. I'm
presently considering the Dacor Falcon, but I haven't had a chance to
even try one on yet, much less dive with one. From my previous
experience with BCs, I don't think I'm overly picky about fit (or I've
been fairly lucky so far and haven't tried any that fit poorly).

The features I seem to find most attractive in a new BC (other than
being a back inflate style) are a good front-loading weight integration
system that uses a snap like system like in the Oceanic QLR or the
Genesis/Sherwood CQR instead of just Velcro, and a few decent pockets to
store things in. The pockets in my present BC aren't that reliable.
I've had smaller items float right out even when they are supposedly
secured with their Velcro tabs and once lost a spare depth gauge that
way.

I know there is a lot more to a BC than just these features, but they're
the ones I've noticed most so far. If anyone has any experience with
the Dacor Falcon I would really appreciate hearing what you have to say
good or bad.

TIA!
Steve

In article <Xns948BDB0DE33F3schlosrat@68.6.19.6>, Schlosrat <schlosrat@hotmail.com> writes:
>I'm planning a dive trip to Hawaii this June and I'm thinking about
>upgrading some of my gear before the trip (sounds like a good excuse,
>anyway :).

(1) Get your new gear early enough to break it in and become familiar
with it BEFORE your trip.

(2) Consider having a wetsuit custom made. This cost isn't that much
more than an off-the-rack suit. However, unless you are forunate enough
to be a perfect off-the-rack fit, the fit will be much better. You also
have the option to customze color, style, pockets, etc.

(3) Before you buy an new BC, you owe it to yourself to beg, borrow or
rent an backplat/wings setup for at least 2-3 dives. I think you'll
like it.

--
Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA
(hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) wrote in
news:PTqWb.146$sb6.92@news.cpqcorp.net:

> (1) Get your new gear early enough to break it in and become familiar
> with it BEFORE your trip.

That is definitely part of my plan! In fact, the club I'm in has a pool
refresher coming up in a few months (but before the trip) where I want
to try the gear out if I don't do something else in the mean time.
Also, one of the LDSs in my area will let you use their pool for a $5
tank rental; so trying out the gear (at least in a pool setting) is
easy. The June trip to Hawaii is so far off, I may even fit in a trip
to Mexico between now and then.

> (2) Consider having a wetsuit custom made. This cost isn't that much
> more than an off-the-rack suit. However, unless you are fortunate
> enough to be a perfect off-the-rack fit, the fit will be much better.
> You also have the option to customize color, style, pockets, etc.

I've heard a few people talk about custom suits, but I wouldn't know
where to even look for them. Can you suggest where I would find that
sort of thing? I don't recall any of the crew at my LDS ever offering
such a service.

> (3) Before you buy an new BC, you owe it to yourself to beg, borrow or
> rent an backplate/wings setup for at least 2-3 dives. I think you'll
> like it.

I admit I'm intrigued by the backplate/wings arrangement. Sort of a mix
and match approach that is supposed to be able to be adapted as my needs
and style of diving change. That sounds cool, but the only ones I've
seen online (and I've never seen anything like this at either of the LDS
I go to) are still too expensive for me, especially when you add weight
integration. At one place, DiveRite I think, the weight integration was
something insane like an extra $100! Oh, come on! It's just some
cordura nylon and Velcro for Pete's sake. Furthermore, their weight
integration pouches were what I think of as "top-loaders" and I'm
looking for "front-loaders". The experience I've had with weight
integrated BCs is all with front-loaders and also all positive, but I've
heard that the top loaders are harder to ditch and also harder to hand
over at the end of a dive. Perhaps that's just a myth, but in any case,
the prices I've seen have been holding me at more than arms length so
far.

One question I have regarding backplates and wings would be are they any
easier to travel with? Obviously I'll be flying to Hawaii, so that's a
concern.

If I get the chance (and I will ask around to see if I can find one), I
will try one of these out just so I can better judge what they are like
to dive with, but for now I just can't see spending that much money when
I can have a weight integrated BC for $100's less.

Thanks,
Steve

In article <Xns948C5991F9D3Bschlosrat@68.6.19.6>,
Schlosrat <schlosrat@hotmail.com> writes:
...
>I've heard a few people talk about custom suits, but I wouldn't know
>where to even look for them. Can you suggest where I would find that
>sort of thing? I don't recall any of the crew at my LDS ever offering
>such a service.

Well, I thought that many, if not most, LDSs offered this service
through one or more suppliers. A web search should turn up
www.wetwear.com and others. Wetwear is local to us -- they've made
suites for both my wife and I with good results.

...
>I admit I'm intrigued by the backplate/wings arrangement. Sort of a mix
>and match approach that is supposed to be able to be adapted as my needs
>and style of diving change. That sounds cool, but the only ones I've
>seen online (and I've never seen anything like this at either of the LDS
>I go to) are still too expensive for me, especially when you add weight
>integration. At one place, DiveRite I think, the weight integration was
>something insane like an extra $100! Oh, come on! It's just some
>cordura nylon and Velcro for Pete's sake. Furthermore, their weight
>integration pouches were what I think of as "top-loaders" and I'm
>looking for "front-loaders". The experience I've had with weight
>integrated BCs is all with front-loaders and also all positive, but I've
>heard that the top loaders are harder to ditch and also harder to hand
>over at the end of a dive. Perhaps that's just a myth, but in any case,
>the prices I've seen have been holding me at more than arms length so
>far.

Yes, it can be expensive -- ours is not a cheap hobby!
With a backplate/wing setup the term "weight integration" does't mean
very much. You can hang weight pockets wherever you need them -- on
your waist belt is one place. I put some on the cam band on my rig.
You can mix and match weight pockets from other manufacturers.
They don't even have to be "official" weight pockets, so long as
the carry the weight securely and can be opened to ditch if needed.

With a backplate/wing it is likely that you will use less weight.
The characteristics of this rig just work better and make it easier
to get rid of excessive weight. This reduces the need to ditch.

My recommendation is to not worry too much about ditching weight.
If you're properly weighted, you probably won't ever need to ditch
more than a small amount of weight -- and that is in a worst case
situation. I have observed several case where ditching or loosing
weight CAUSED problems; I have personally NEVER observed a case where
ditching weight is either necessary or appropriate. However, I know
that this can be necessary and you should plan for it.


>One question I have regarding backplates and wings would be are they any
>easier to travel with? Obviously I'll be flying to Hawaii, so that's a
>concern.

Depending on the BC your comparing with, it is generally about the same.
I chose an aluminum plate to save weight for travel. (Thus the weight
I carry on my cam band.)

>If I get the chance (and I will ask around to see if I can find one), I
>will try one of these out just so I can better judge what they are like
>to dive with, but for now I just can't see spending that much money when
>I can have a weight integrated BC for $100's less.

If you already had a backplate/wing, you would likely be spending
$100s less now to upgrade it, rather than having to replace your BC.
Buying the least expensive equipment can be false economy.

--
Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA
(hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

"Schlosrat" <schlosrat@hotmail.com> wrote > I've heard a few people talk
about custom suits, but I wouldn't know
> where to even look for them. Can you suggest where I would find that
> sort of thing

My favorite suits are from www.wetwear.com with all of the custom stuff I
wanted. They gave me i/o carpet knee pads, main zipper just where I wanted
it, plus... the coolest thing they offer is "leg/arm expansion zippers".
Look under http://www.wetwear.com/accessories.htm Very functional gear.


I've got a 3/5 and a 5/7. I can get my Orca shaped body in and out of them
in less than 30 seconds... done.

They also do Superman, WonderWoman and VooDoo Priest styles.

Doc.

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:47:48 GMT, Schlosrat <schlosrat@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) wrote in
>news:PTqWb.146$sb6.92@news.cpqcorp.net:
>
>> (1) Get your new gear early enough to break it in and become familiar
>> with it BEFORE your trip.
>
>That is definitely part of my plan! In fact, the club I'm in has a pool
>refresher coming up in a few months (but before the trip) where I want
>to try the gear out if I don't do something else in the mean time.
>Also, one of the LDSs in my area will let you use their pool for a $5
>tank rental; so trying out the gear (at least in a pool setting) is
>easy. The June trip to Hawaii is so far off, I may even fit in a trip
>to Mexico between now and then.
>
>> (2) Consider having a wetsuit custom made. This cost isn't that much
>> more than an off-the-rack suit. However, unless you are fortunate
>> enough to be a perfect off-the-rack fit, the fit will be much better.
>> You also have the option to customize color, style, pockets, etc.
>
>I've heard a few people talk about custom suits, but I wouldn't know
>where to even look for them. Can you suggest where I would find that
>sort of thing? I don't recall any of the crew at my LDS ever offering
>such a service.

Wetwear has awesome suits. I have one, but I dive dry about 99% of the
time now. They have had some service issues, but they have a great
product.
>
>> (3) Before you buy an new BC, you owe it to yourself to beg, borrow or
>> rent an backplate/wings setup for at least 2-3 dives. I think you'll
>> like it.
>
>I admit I'm intrigued by the backplate/wings arrangement. Sort of a mix
>and match approach that is supposed to be able to be adapted as my needs
>and style of diving change. That sounds cool, but the only ones I've
>seen online (and I've never seen anything like this at either of the LDS
>I go to) are still too expensive for me, especially when you add weight
>integration. At one place, DiveRite I think, the weight integration was
>something insane like an extra $100! Oh, come on! It's just some
>cordura nylon and Velcro for Pete's sake.

With a bp/wing you can get a 6lb or an 8lb backplate, thereby taking
that weight off the waist area and spreading it where it will actually
help your trim. Add to that teh ability to have weighted STA's and you
can easily get down to a few ditchable lbs on the waist. Not to
mention that you will have a much more balanced rig on the whole.

Furthermore, their weight
>integration pouches were what I think of as "top-loaders" and I'm
>looking for "front-loaders".

Not quite sure what a top loader vs front loader is. Are you referring
to the pouch and how the weight is held in the pouch?


The experience I've had with weight
>integrated BCs is all with front-loaders and also all positive, but I've
>heard that the top loaders are harder to ditch and also harder to hand
>over at the end of a dive. Perhaps that's just a myth, but in any case,
>the prices I've seen have been holding me at more than arms length so
>far.
>
>One question I have regarding backplates and wings would be are they any
>easier to travel with?

No, I don't think they are any easier or harder.

Obviously I'll be flying to Hawaii, so that's a
>concern.
>
>If I get the chance (and I will ask around to see if I can find one), I
>will try one of these out just so I can better judge what they are like
>to dive with, but for now I just can't see spending that much money when
>I can have a weight integrated BC for $100's less.

Because it's the right tool for the job. Have you ever had a
screwdriver that almost fit the screw. I can get that screw out, but
damn if I had the proper tool it would be a breeze. Jacket bc's do the
job, but bp/wing is the choice.
Quickly, if you wanted to lift an item from the sea floor...would you
place the lift bags...a) above and along the axis of the item....b)
around the item...or c) underneath the item...??


Laser

Oh, I forgot to mention. The Dacor Falcon also has a lower rear pull dump
in addition to the standard shoulder dump. My US Divers BC has a shoulder
dump on each side, but now lower rear pull dump, so sometimes you have to
twist around to be able to dump air out when you're trying to control your
buoyancy. I find this frustrating and so any BC I consider must have a
real pull dump of some kind. Just how well the rear pull dump on a Dacor
Falcon works I have no idea. I just know it has one and mine doesn't. One
more reason to upgrade to something newer whether or not it's the Dacor
Falcon.

Cheers,
Steve

In article <Xns948CD90D97C4Dschlosrat@68.6.19.6>, Schlosrat
<schlosrat@hotmail.com> wrote:

€ (1) It's a back inflate BC (which I imagine makes it somewhat similar to
€ a BP/W in terms of the way it would handle under water)

Not even close.

The rest is bullshit.

--
"We're going to rush the hijackers."
-Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 04:19:37 GMT, Schlosrat <schlosrat@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Laser <Laser.t12@mindspring.com> wrote in
>news:lbjl20hnibvluboak2pu886jmtrgs2tg5v@4ax.com :
>
>
>> Not quite sure what a top loader vs front loader is. Are you referring
>> to the pouch and how the weight is held in the pouch?
>
>Yes, exactly! If you picture yourself standing in the boat with your
>gear on, do the weight pouches slide horizontally into pockets at your
>sides through an opening facing the front (what I call a front-loader
>and similar to about 99% of the weight integrated BCs I've ever seen or
>dove with), or do the weight pouches slide vertically into pockets
>through openings facing the sky (what I call top-loaders, like the
>Oceanic Pro Tour)?
>
>I can see that there are a number of people here who appear to prefer a
>backplate/wing to a BC. I've never even seen one first hand, but I am
>curious about them. I would like to try one, but frankly I doubt very
>much I'll buy one. The BC I'm leaning towards getting right now is the
>Dacor Falcon. This BC has a number of features that appeal to me
>combined with a very reasonable price. The features I find so appealing
>are...

Sounds like your being sold on the features of the BCD rather than
what you really need.

>
>(1) It's a back inflate BC (which I imagine makes it somewhat similar to
>a BP/W in terms of the way it would handle under water). My present BC
>is a very old US Divers jacket style with very little in the way of
>adjustments for fit. The one time I dove with a buddy's back inflate BC
>I really liked the way that handled as compared to mine and other jacket
>style BCs I've tried.
>
>(2) It's weight integrated. My present BC isn't and I've found that
>diving with a weight integrated BC is much more comfortable and also far
>easier to load and unload. When I was getting certified I performed the
>"remove your weights, hold them up, and then put them back on while
>bobbing in the water" maneuver with both my weight belt, and then later
>with the handy weight pouches in a weight integrated BC. It was like
>night and day. From my experience weight integrated is the only way to
>go. Handing my weight belt up vs. handing up weight pouches at the end
>of a dive? You can keep your weight belt, I'm going with the weight
>integrated BC, thankyouverymuch!
>
My plate weighes about 3 kg, which means when I go on vacation I need
no additional weight anywhere. It really is amazing how much weight
you can discard with a simple backplate and wing setup.

Diving at home in cold water I add another 2 kg at most, thats in a
pouch, couldnt be simpler.

>(2a) The weight-integrated pouches secure with a snap in, snap out
>buckle instead of Velcro. These seem more secure than Velcro and also
>may not be prone to wearing out like Velcro. I've never really liked
>Velcro for holding anything that is essential. Keeping hoses secured is
>one thing, but holding a weight pouch is another.

>
>(3) It has rotating buckles on the (padded) shoulder pads above the
>collar bone. This is supposed to make it fit better, and as I said
>above, my present BC lacks most modern adjustments for fit. Here's what
>my present BC does have: Other than the waist belt and depth
>compensating cummerbund, it's got a couple of cinches low on each side.
>There is no padding in the shoulders, only part of the air bladder.
>Also no sternum strap, nor any adjustments for the length from the
>shoulders to the belt. I suspect that just about any new BC (or a BP/W
>for that matter) would be much better than what I've got right now in
>terms of comfort and fit.
>
The fit of a backplate is first rate to anything you have tried.

>(4) It has four stainless steel D rings, plus four more polymer D rings.
>My present BC has, oh let me count them... No D rings, one rather rusty
>steel spring clip that is now permanently closed with rust and one still
>serviceable brass spring clip. It also has a fair number of worn out
>Velcro loops that I don't attach things to unless I don't mind loosing
>them.


>(5) It has an unrollable mask pocket and an expandable bag. My present
>BC has two modest pockets secured by Velcro flaps. I don't put anything
>in them unless I don't mind loosing it, either. I lost a spare depth
>gage that way (which was fortunately found and returned by another diver
>on the same trip). The pockets on the Dacor Falcon roll up and tuck
>away if you're not using them. Mine don't, they just hang about looking
>useless.

Unrollable mask pocket? expandable bag? Are you going shopping
underwater? Seems like a gimmick to me.

>
>Obviously, as I said in a previous post, I do have a number of good
>reasons for wanting to replace my present BC with something more modern!
>My BC may be safe, but that doesn't mean it make diving less work and
>more fun. I suppose I could replace my BC with a backplate/wing, but I
>can get a Dacor Falcon for $275. I don't know of any backplate/wing
>combination that comes even remotely close to this price. If you do,
>please let me know; I'd love to check it out.

Ah, so it comes down to cost then. Yes you can buy your BCDs till your
blue in the face, upgrading, replacing, etc. but I know I've bought my
last backplate ever. All I need to replace is the webbing after it
wears through every 5 years or so.

>I'm still very interested in hearing from anyone who has dove with a
>Dacor Falcon and can tell me more about what their personal first-hand
>experiences were like with this piece of gear.
>
>I'm also very interested in hearing from anyone who has used an Akona
>wetsuit, particularly their 3 mm full suit. The only piece of Akona
>gear I've got is my weight bag (which I happen to like quite a lot, but
>which doesn't tell me much about the fit and craftsmanship of their
>wetsuits). Surely someone out there has an opinion on Akona wetsuits!

In the end I can see that you will probably go the route most often
travelled and go with just another BCD. Are you really going to settle
for second best again?

>
>Thanks,
>Steve

-----------------------------------------------
Visit my website at: http://mlloyd.homedns.org

Mark Lloyd <mlloyd@hotmail.com> wrote:


>
>In the end I can see that you will probably go the route most often
>travelled and go with just another BCD. Are you really going to settle
>for second best again?
>


Neither one is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a
matter of personal opinion and what you're comfortable with.

If someone prefers a back inflate BC over a plate/wing then it's not
second best for them.