Best BCD recommendation

"Scott" <scottk@localaxes.com> wrote in message
news:10dfbrt64gf9j39@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vINBc.13670$Wr.12715@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
>
> > If there is an inovation that is clearly superior it's just a matter of
> time before
> > it becomes generally adopted. Individual shops cannot keep innovation
> down. You can
> > cite examples of this with technology in the past. Even the design of
> scuba gear: the
> > on demand diaphragm regulator, the change from J valve to pressure gauge,
> the change
> > from horse collar to today's BCDs, from single stage to two stage
> regulator, etc.
>
> So, where is the "zeitgeist" line drawn?
>
> =

There is no line. It's hard to predict if something is a fancy or a trend.

I suspect you're thinking of the BP/wing as the better BCD. Are you predicting that
this will become the dominant BC and jacket BCs will go the way the J valve?

"Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vINBc.13670$Wr.12715@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
>
> "Scott" <scottk@localaxes.com> wrote in message
> news:10df1d1tf62mpbf@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:A1LBc.13530$Wr.7115@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > >
> > > "mzeitlin" <mzeitlin@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> > > news:wnIBc.7817$zc5.670@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com ...
> > > > We're getting back into the sport and want to get new BC's with the
> > latest
> > > > technology - Can someone recommend a favorite ?
> > > >
> > > If there was a best most people would be using nothing but that one.
There
> > is no
> > > best.
> >
> > That's not true at all.
> >
> > Many people haven't been exposed to anything more or less than what the
shop
> > they got instructed at sells.
>
> If there is an inovation that is clearly superior it's just a matter of
time before
> it becomes generally adopted. Individual shops cannot keep innovation
down. You can
> cite examples of this with technology in the past. Even the design of
scuba gear: the
> on demand diaphragm regulator, the change from J valve to pressure gauge,
the change
> from horse collar to today's BCDs, from single stage to two stage
regulator, etc.

But it may be a long time. The industry effectively killed the AT-PAC with
integrated weights and similar designs didn't pop up again for many years.
I saw a constant volume BC developed by an acquaintance about 20 years ago
and it went nowhere.

"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:IMOBc.3315$vq.2247@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com ...
>
> "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vINBc.13670$Wr.12715@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
> >
> > "Scott" <scottk@localaxes.com> wrote in message
> > news:10df1d1tf62mpbf@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
> > > "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:A1LBc.13530$Wr.7115@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > >
> > > > "mzeitlin" <mzeitlin@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:wnIBc.7817$zc5.670@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com ...
> > > > > We're getting back into the sport and want to get new BC's with the
> > > latest
> > > > > technology - Can someone recommend a favorite ?
> > > > >
> > > > If there was a best most people would be using nothing but that one.
> There
> > > is no
> > > > best.
> > >
> > > That's not true at all.
> > >
> > > Many people haven't been exposed to anything more or less than what the
> shop
> > > they got instructed at sells.
> >
> > If there is an inovation that is clearly superior it's just a matter of
> time before
> > it becomes generally adopted. Individual shops cannot keep innovation
> down. You can
> > cite examples of this with technology in the past. Even the design of
> scuba gear: the
> > on demand diaphragm regulator, the change from J valve to pressure gauge,
> the change
> > from horse collar to today's BCDs, from single stage to two stage
> regulator, etc.
>
> But it may be a long time. The industry effectively killed the AT-PAC with
> integrated weights and similar designs didn't pop up again for many years.
> I saw a constant volume BC developed by an acquaintance about 20 years ago
> and it went nowhere.

The first time I heard of the AT-PAC was when a San Diego diver drowned wearing one a
few years ago. To make a long story short, she found herself negatively buoyant near
the surface with no air. Apparently she tried to dump the weight from the AT-PAC and
the thing failed to dump and she drowned. From what I remember you pull a cord and
the weight is in the form of lead shot behind you and is supposed to release.

If my description is correct the design is seriously flawed and may explain its
demise.

Adam

"Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nkPBc.13757$Wr.12994@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
>
> The first time I heard of the AT-PAC was when a San Diego diver drowned
wearing one a
> few years ago. To make a long story short, she found herself negatively
buoyant near
> the surface with no air. Apparently she tried to dump the weight from the
AT-PAC and
> the thing failed to dump and she drowned. From what I remember you pull a
cord and
> the weight is in the form of lead shot behind you and is supposed to
release.
>
> If my description is correct the design is seriously flawed and may
explain its
> demise.

It had one of the simplest releases available at the time and did not rely
on Velcro holding Velcro holding something in place as some of the designs
did a few years ago.
Lead shot was used and the rest of the space was filled with marbles.

I'd bet a nickel that the shot had not been touched in years and it had
clumped together or that other weights had been shoved inside because
finding the right size shot is hard today and it is expensive.
Note that I've never actually seen this but have heard of it.
However I'd have to see the report that indicated she had tried to do this
as releasing weights is very rare in diving drownings.

The one bad thing about the design was that it was only removable in one
direction. The release looks like a big safety pin with the loop at the
bottom, the ends cut off and some small wiggles. It threaded the bottom
plate to the pack itself. When you pulled it you had a big wide hole for the
shot to drop out.

"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:xKPBc.7329$ZW5.4142@newssvr27.news.prodigy.co m...
>
> "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:nkPBc.13757$Wr.12994@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
> >
> > The first time I heard of the AT-PAC was when a San Diego diver drowned
> wearing one a
> > few years ago. To make a long story short, she found herself negatively
> buoyant near
> > the surface with no air. Apparently she tried to dump the weight from the
> AT-PAC and
> > the thing failed to dump and she drowned. From what I remember you pull a
> cord and
> > the weight is in the form of lead shot behind you and is supposed to
> release.
> >
> > If my description is correct the design is seriously flawed and may
> explain its
> > demise.
>
> It had one of the simplest releases available at the time and did not rely
> on Velcro holding Velcro holding something in place as some of the designs
> did a few years ago.
> Lead shot was used and the rest of the space was filled with marbles.
>
> I'd bet a nickel that the shot had not been touched in years and it had
> clumped together

That was the explanation given at the time.

Adam



or that other weights had been shoved inside because
> finding the right size shot is hard today and it is expensive.
> Note that I've never actually seen this but have heard of it.
> However I'd have to see the report that indicated she had tried to do this
> as releasing weights is very rare in diving drownings.
>
> The one bad thing about the design was that it was only removable in one
> direction. The release looks like a big safety pin with the loop at the
> bottom, the ends cut off and some small wiggles. It threaded the bottom
> plate to the pack itself. When you pulled it you had a big wide hole for the
> shot to drop out.
>
>

Adam Helberg <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Many people haven't been exposed to anything more or less than what the shop
>> they got instructed at sells.
>
>If there is an inovation that is clearly superior it's just a matter of time before
>it becomes generally adopted. Individual shops cannot keep innovation down. You can

That's why split fins rule the dive shop? Innovation? Innovative way to extract
big money for what used to be a simple set of snorkel gear.

What sells at the dive shop has not a goddamn thing to do with superiority. Most
people could do their diving with any kind of BC. I went a few hundred dives with
a USD Sonic 2 (jacket BC) until I finally found something I liked better. It did
a poor job, but it was cheap (250) and worked as well as scores of $500 BCs for
sale out there.

Mountain bikes destroyed the road bike market, even though the latter is by most
regards quite inferior and ridiculously slow for the terrain most people ride on.
2" knobby tires for street riding? Comfy, but terribly slow. Dual suspension is
fabulous on rougher terrain but where most people are riding it's merely a few
extra pounds of dead weight.

Try again, Adam.
--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

In article <TtOBc.13718$Wr.13035@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net>,
"Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "Scott" <scottk@localaxes.com> wrote:
> > "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote:.
> >
> > > If there is an inovation that is clearly superior it's just a
> > > matter of time before it becomes generally adopted. Individual
> > > shops cannot keep innovation down...
> >
> > So, where is the "zeitgeist" line drawn?
> >
> > =
>
> There is no line. It's hard to predict if something is a fancy or a trend.
>
> I suspect you're thinking of the BP/wing as the better BCD. Are you
> predicting that this will become the dominant BC and jacket BCs
> will go the way the J valve?

If it is, then I'm going to be going back to the "J valve" of BC's,
because the wing that I'm currently using tilts me too far forward for
my liking on surface floats. I believe the reason to be a combination
of me being setup for travel, which means minimal/no built-in keel
weighting and the use of AL80's, plus I carry a pretty heavy UW camera
up front, which results in a torque force much greater than what a
Jacket design displayed. YMMV.

This is merely one more example of the fact that divers have different
performance requirements, which is the basis of a lot of the dispute on
the 'standardization at all costs' of DIR Acolytes.


-hh

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:25:48 GMT, "mzeitlin" <mzeitlin@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>We're getting back into the sport and want to get new BC's with the latest
>technology - Can someone recommend a favorite ?

First off, you're not buying a computer. The "latest technology" is
100 years old and being re-made with new materials. What you need depends
on your dive mission, and what you want to do.

Whenever anyone asks about BC's here, there's a whole crowd of
Islamic Fundamentalists that jump up and shout:

Backplate and Wings!

Ignore them. Their mission is to kill Americans and they don't care
how they do it. None of them have ever been diving, but they know the
lingo. Like all extremists they are willing to die for their cause,
and so, they may actually own one of these death traps, the better to
achieve martyrdom should they ever actually go diving.

Be very wary of anyone that tells you how much they "love" their gear.
Love of an inanimate object is a sign of serious mental instability.

A BC is a BC. It works or not. You know how to work it or not. If
you do, then shop around. If you don't, then by all means, buy whatever
a bunch of Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists tell you to buy, because
it really won't make any difference at all. They will tell you that
you are very cool, but you will never see them on a boat. By and large,
their diving frequency is the lowest of any sector on the internet.

A good diver can dive well with any BC, and a bad diver will dive
badly with any BC.

In the REAL WORLD: I have never, ever seen a single BP/wing in use.
Ten liveaboards, and nine land based trips to foreign dive destinations
in the last 5 years, and ZERO BP/Wings sighted on bona fide divers,
ACTUALLY diving.

In the local world, I occasionally see a BP on a local dive boat. More
often than not, it is a poster from this group. "Occasionally" is
once a year or so. Not counting posters from this group, I have seen
BP's twice. That's over 160 weekend outings since 2000, easily observing
1600+ ACTUAL divers, ACTUALLY diving. Whatever else they are, they
are certainly not popular among divers.

In the realm of BC's there are 2 classes: Stab-Jacket and Back-Wing.
There used to be a third, and though I still see people with horse collars,
they are grossly inferior to the other two. There are benefits and
costs with both kinds. In the actual diving public that I see,
Stab-jackets remain the clear winner in terms of numbers.

The BP/Wing is a member of the Back-Wing class. It is purpose built to
mount double cylinders.

There are many offerings in both classes from all manufacturers
A major consideration is the money you want to spend and the duty
cycle your equipment will be expected to sustain. There is no sense
in spending money on a Hummer when what you need is a skateboard.

IMOWINSH, back-wings are not suitable for casual or infrequent divers.
They are also not the best choice for photographers or videographers.
Contrary to what some people think, a good stab jacket can pack just
as compactly as any other BC backwing or not. There are bad backwings
as well as bad stab jackets.

You say you're just "getting back into diving". My advice then is to
rent gear in the short term, talk to divers and check out their gear.
Find out what they like and why they like it. Face to face you can
be sure of what you're talking to, and seeing them dive you'll know
if they "walk the walk".

safe diving,

bullshark

Ahh....but by asking, I get see if a preferred BCD rises to the top!
Backplate with wings seems to be what people prefer. And so I am going with
that.

Who makes a great BCD with this design?

"Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:A1LBc.13530$Wr.7115@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
>
> "mzeitlin" <mzeitlin@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:wnIBc.7817$zc5.670@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com ...
> > We're getting back into the sport and want to get new BC's with the
latest
> > technology - Can someone recommend a favorite ?
> >
> If there was a best most people would be using nothing but that one. There
is no
> best.
>
> Adam
>
>

" H. Huntzinger" <{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba@huntzinger.com> wrote in message
news:{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba-508A72.07152722062004@news-east.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <TtOBc.13718$Wr.13035@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net>,
> "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "Scott" <scottk@localaxes.com> wrote:
> > > "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote:.
> > >
> > > > If there is an inovation that is clearly superior it's just a
> > > > matter of time before it becomes generally adopted. Individual
> > > > shops cannot keep innovation down...
> > >
> > > So, where is the "zeitgeist" line drawn?
> > >
> > > =
> >
> > There is no line. It's hard to predict if something is a fancy or a trend.
> >
> > I suspect you're thinking of the BP/wing as the better BCD. Are you
> > predicting that this will become the dominant BC and jacket BCs
> > will go the way the J valve?
>
> If it is, then I'm going to be going back to the "J valve" of BC's,
> because the wing that I'm currently using tilts me too far forward for
> my liking on surface floats.

I had the same problem until I bought two inexpensive XScuba weight pouches that fit
into the tank band. Mine are on the top band and I generally put 2-3 lbs into each
pouch. This acts just like the keel weight and it also helps with my trim keeping me
horizontal when swimming prone. Unlike the keel weight the pouches add no travel
weight.

Adam