Regulators that perform well at depths below 70 feet

Walter

Realize that the LOCAL dive shop may NOT be the best place to get your
regulator serviced. INSIST on proof that whoever TOUCHES your
regulators are factory trained/factory certified to work on your regs.
Many dive shops DO NOT have repair folks factory trained/certified on
ALL the brand that they sell and "service"

Might be worth talking to the tech support folks at the company
headquarters and maybe even have the company service your regulator

Have seen some really screwed up repairs come out of dive shops over
the years

Also, the comment about replacing the first stage doesn't sound quite
kosher from here. Internal parts don't just get BENT in normal use,
but they SURE can get bent by a tech who screws things up. Saw a shop
"technian" break off a cap on an old USD regulator because he was not
aware that the cap had left hand threads, and kept getting bigger and
bigger wrenches until the metal failed. And he NEVER told the
customer that the problem was that the shop tech screwed up and broke
his working regulator

John

On 16 Aug 2004 17:07:10 -0500, "Walter Willis"
<walter.willis@comcast.net> wrote:

>> >Only if I was looking for recommendations of what to do with my current
>reg.
>> >:) But I am looking to upgrade because the one I bought in 1997 was at
>the
>> >low end of the models. I did not know then what kind of diving I would
>be
>> >doing nor how much nor how deep. It was a good starter reg.
>>
>> This sort of attitude borders on trollish, Walter. It is incredibly
>relevent
>> what reg you have - how the hell can we make a recommendation for a
>replacement
>> without knowing the original? It's also rather easy to borrow or rent
>> a better rig to see.
>>
>
>In no way did I even intend to be trollish. I just did not feel, in my
>opinion, that it was germaine to the discussion because I am looking for a
>replacement. And that is why I put the little smiley emoticon there so
>people would not think I was 'jumping down their throat' or such. But I can
>certainly get the brand and model when I get home and post it since many do
>think it is pertanant.
>
>> Frankly, nothing really explains well what's going on with you. Even a
>low
>> performance reg will do well enough at 80; if not I think it would be
>evident
>> at any depth. The tuning knobs on my G250 are not used when I go deeper;
>many
>> feel that a properly tuned G200 (no knobs) is a good way to save a few
>bucks.
>>
>
>If that were the case why do some regs come with a knob to open up the flow
>when you are deeper? If the performance of the reg is 'even' throughout the
>range, why would there be a need for a knob to open up the flow? Or is that
>just a gimmick to get you to pay more?
>
>> If it were deeper I'd wonder if you're getting narc'd and thus spiking
>your
>> SAC, even after you finish your spike. I've felt it as shallow as 90, but
>> usually not. Does depth make you nervous?
>>
>
>Not at all, not anymore. There was some nervousness when I had not done
>many dives deeper than 60', but I would not say I am nervous or scared
>anylonger. Night dives - that's different - I still feel uneasy doing night
>dives because I do get a little disoriented (I should do more so I learn to
>overcome).
>
>> Are you getting cold? Are you hitting thermoclines at depth that stress
>the body?
>
>No thermoclines either (though we did hit some during the trip but they were
>not present on every dive and don't seem to have a connection - the coldest
>I registered was a nice 81 degrees).
>
>I will take my regs into the shop and speak with them about it, see what
>they have to say. I just have not had the time since I returned from my
>trip.
>
>Walter
>

Before I dropped of my regs I noted what brand and model they are.
Second stage is US Divers SE2
First stage is Scubapro (has 2 hp, 4lp) - forgot to get the model as I
dropped it off at the scuba store though - usually setup with DIN.

I dropped it the regs at the scuba store for testing, with a request
that they call me first so I can explain the situation to them first.

Aside from that, I am still considering upgrading. If anything my son
will get the current setup when he gets certified (he recently
completed the scuba rangers program).

Walter


On 16 Aug 2004 17:07:10 -0500, "Walter Willis"
<walter.willis@comcast.net> wrote:

>> >Only if I was looking for recommendations of what to do with my current
>reg.
>> >:) But I am looking to upgrade because the one I bought in 1997 was at
>the
>> >low end of the models. I did not know then what kind of diving I would
>be
>> >doing nor how much nor how deep. It was a good starter reg.
>>
>> This sort of attitude borders on trollish, Walter. It is incredibly
>relevent
>> what reg you have - how the hell can we make a recommendation for a
>replacement
>> without knowing the original? It's also rather easy to borrow or rent
>> a better rig to see.
>>
>
>In no way did I even intend to be trollish. I just did not feel, in my
>opinion, that it was germaine to the discussion because I am looking for a
>replacement. And that is why I put the little smiley emoticon there so
>people would not think I was 'jumping down their throat' or such. But I can
>certainly get the brand and model when I get home and post it since many do
>think it is pertanant.
>
>> Frankly, nothing really explains well what's going on with you. Even a
>low
>> performance reg will do well enough at 80; if not I think it would be
>evident
>> at any depth. The tuning knobs on my G250 are not used when I go deeper;
>many
>> feel that a properly tuned G200 (no knobs) is a good way to save a few
>bucks.
>>
>
>If that were the case why do some regs come with a knob to open up the flow
>when you are deeper? If the performance of the reg is 'even' throughout the
>range, why would there be a need for a knob to open up the flow? Or is that
>just a gimmick to get you to pay more?
>
>> If it were deeper I'd wonder if you're getting narc'd and thus spiking
>your
>> SAC, even after you finish your spike. I've felt it as shallow as 90, but
>> usually not. Does depth make you nervous?
>>
>
>Not at all, not anymore. There was some nervousness when I had not done
>many dives deeper than 60', but I would not say I am nervous or scared
>anylonger. Night dives - that's different - I still feel uneasy doing night
>dives because I do get a little disoriented (I should do more so I learn to
>overcome).
>
>> Are you getting cold? Are you hitting thermoclines at depth that stress
>the body?
>
>No thermoclines either (though we did hit some during the trip but they were
>not present on every dive and don't seem to have a connection - the coldest
>I registered was a nice 81 degrees).
>
>I will take my regs into the shop and speak with them about it, see what
>they have to say. I just have not had the time since I returned from my
>trip.
>
>Walter
>

On 16 Aug 2004 13:13:27 -0500, "Walter Willis"
<walter.willis@comcast.net> wrote:

>>
>> > ... When I dive above 70' I
>can
>> >get a total dive time of over 40 minutes. But as soon as I go below that
>> >level my total times falls below 30 minutes, ...
>>
>> Do follow the prviously posted advice to get your regulator serviced.
>>
>It is seviced annually, regardless of how many dives I have done during the
>year. Since it is not used heavily during the year it is serviced once per
>year. It was also overhauld in 2002 - completely.
>
>> However, you air supply will diminish more rapidly at greater depths.
>> At greater depths your 2nd stange provides air at greater pressure --
>> necessarily matching the greater ambient pressure at greater depth.
>> Consequently, each breath will reduce your tank pressure by a
>> greater mount.
>>
>> Maybe you need to get out your Basic Open Water text and review this.
>>
>
>I am aware of the physics and that the ATM preassure is different the deeper
>you go, and that you use more air at 99' than at 66'. But that does not
>explain why if I go to 80-85' for a period of 3 minutes I loose 15 minutes
>of dive time compared to staying 70' and above, yet if I go to 110' for a
>comperable period I only loose 16-17 minutes compared to shallower. I would
>expect to have a dive time shortened by maybe 4-5 minutes from a 3 minute
>period at 80-85', not a 15 minute difference.
>
>Walter
>

Sounds to me like you are using an air-integrated dive computer to
determine your expected TBT at that depth. They may be programming a
conservative estimate when you cross into 80 fsw territory.

You need to specify your regulator make/model and dive computer
make/model so others may be able to identify what's going on.

An A-I DC could also be measuring your respiration rate and volume and
even though you deny anxiousness, the computer is measuring an
increase in your air consumption at that depth that is not a linear
function of your depth.

In article <fvp2i01ekvjp55nskh97if1kg6l6c6jl3n@4ax.com>, Walter Willis
<walter.willis@comcast.net> wrote:

> Before I dropped of my regs I noted what brand and model they are.
> Second stage is US Divers SE2
> First stage is Scubapro (has 2 hp, 4lp)

Almost all SP 1st's have 2 HP and 4 LP ports

> - forgot to get the model as I
> dropped it off at the scuba store though - usually setup with DIN.

Usually setup with DIN???

If you're regularily changing your 1st stages back and forth from DIN
to yokes, I'd expect you'd know a lot more about regulators than the
rest of your postings suggest.


>
> I dropped it the regs at the scuba store for testing, with a request
> that they call me first so I can explain the situation to them first.
>
> Aside from that, I am still considering upgrading. If anything my son
> will get the current setup when he gets certified (he recently
> completed the scuba rangers program).
>

For comparison, a Scubapro Mk2/R190 (bottom of the line first and
second stage)s breathes fine at 100 fsw (at least in my personal
experience, comparing it with an Apeks T100). The Mk2 doesn't maintain
great regulation as the tank pressure drops (as expected with an
unbalanced design) and the R190 is somewhat large, but even as a bottom
of the line regulator, it wouldn't make a big difference in SAC rate
under low stress diving conditions.

There's nothing wrong with buying new gear, but unless there's
something out of order with your current regulator, don't expect a new
toy to make much of a difference in your bottom time below
60/80/100/130 ft.


> Walter
>
>
> On 16 Aug 2004 17:07:10 -0500, "Walter Willis"
> <walter.willis@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >> >Only if I was looking for recommendations of what to do with my current
> >reg.
> >> >:) But I am looking to upgrade because the one I bought in 1997 was at
> >the
> >> >low end of the models. I did not know then what kind of diving I would
> >be
> >> >doing nor how much nor how deep. It was a good starter reg.
> >>
> >> This sort of attitude borders on trollish, Walter. It is incredibly
> >relevent
> >> what reg you have - how the hell can we make a recommendation for a
> >replacement
> >> without knowing the original? It's also rather easy to borrow or rent
> >> a better rig to see.
> >>
> >
> >In no way did I even intend to be trollish. I just did not feel, in my
> >opinion, that it was germaine to the discussion because I am looking for a
> >replacement. And that is why I put the little smiley emoticon there so
> >people would not think I was 'jumping down their throat' or such. But I can
> >certainly get the brand and model when I get home and post it since many do
> >think it is pertanant.
> >
> >> Frankly, nothing really explains well what's going on with you. Even a
> >low
> >> performance reg will do well enough at 80; if not I think it would be
> >evident
> >> at any depth. The tuning knobs on my G250 are not used when I go deeper;
> >many
> >> feel that a properly tuned G200 (no knobs) is a good way to save a few
> >bucks.
> >>
> >
> >If that were the case why do some regs come with a knob to open up the flow
> >when you are deeper? If the performance of the reg is 'even' throughout the
> >range, why would there be a need for a knob to open up the flow? Or is that
> >just a gimmick to get you to pay more?
> >
> >> If it were deeper I'd wonder if you're getting narc'd and thus spiking
> >your
> >> SAC, even after you finish your spike. I've felt it as shallow as 90, but
> >> usually not. Does depth make you nervous?
> >>
> >
> >Not at all, not anymore. There was some nervousness when I had not done
> >many dives deeper than 60', but I would not say I am nervous or scared
> >anylonger. Night dives - that's different - I still feel uneasy doing night
> >dives because I do get a little disoriented (I should do more so I learn to
> >overcome).
> >
> >> Are you getting cold? Are you hitting thermoclines at depth that stress
> >the body?
> >
> >No thermoclines either (though we did hit some during the trip but they were
> >not present on every dive and don't seem to have a connection - the coldest
> >I registered was a nice 81 degrees).
> >
> >I will take my regs into the shop and speak with them about it, see what
> >they have to say. I just have not had the time since I returned from my
> >trip.
> >
> >Walter
> >
>

">
> Usually setup with DIN???
>
> If you're regularily changing your 1st stages back and forth from DIN
> to yokes, I'd expect you'd know a lot more about regulators than the
> rest of your postings suggest.
>
>
I don't switch from Din to Yoke often. I have a steel 100 tank that is my
normal diving tank which uses din. I only swapped from din to yoke for my
liveaboard trip that I just took. And it really does not take knowledge
about regulators to swap them. The technician showed me how to do it and it
was very easy.

>
> Sounds to me like you are using an air-integrated dive computer to
> determine your expected TBT at that depth. They may be programming a
> conservative estimate when you cross into 80 fsw territory.
>

Yes, I do have an air integrated dive computer. But I am not talking about
estimated bottem time, I am talking real, actual dive time, looking at the
profile of the dive after I have made the dive, seeing my depth at each
point in time and how long I was there.

> You need to specify your regulator make/model and dive computer
> make/model so others may be able to identify what's going on.
>
> An A-I DC could also be measuring your respiration rate and volume and
> even though you deny anxiousness, the computer is measuring an
> increase in your air consumption at that depth that is not a linear
> function of your depth.
>

It is an Uwatec Air Nitrox computer. It does monitor respiration rate.
Since breathing seems to be more difficult below a certain depth (I am not
saying it is twice or half as difficult, I simply noticed that there was
resistance - kind of like the difference between breathing normally and
breathing through the sleeve of your shirt) I ended up working a bit harder
just to breath and that brought my resp. rate up. The increased resp. rate
is why my time is shortened so much. The problem is to eliminate the cause
behind that increased respiration rate, thus allowing me to breath normally,
and increase my bottem time.

Walter Willis <walter.willis@comcast.net> wrote:
>If that were the case why do some regs come with a knob to open up the flow
>when you are deeper? If the performance of the reg is 'even' throughout the
>range, why would there be a need for a knob to open up the flow? Or is that
>just a gimmick to get you to pay more?

The primary use for the knob is actually to close down the flow - a high
performance reg that is out of tune tends to free flow spectacularly. Beyond that,
yeah, it's marketing. A decent reg will work great throughout the recreational
depth range without any need to tune. Jaw fit on the mouthpiece and any pull on
the hose would make a bigger difference. At 100ft in a crisis with both people
drawing on the same reg, a lower quality first stage might show itself.

I saw in another post that you were considering giving this questionable rig
to your kid. WTF?? I don't think sub teens should be diving period, but even
at shallow depths he shouldn't be using a reg you don't have faith in for yourself.
--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

Fellow divers.

From some of the responses that I got requesting your experience with
higher performance regulators, I felt like some folks thought I was
stupid/ignorant/doofus/pick your adjective (and on this I don't care
if someone thinks I am being trollish, I'm stating how I felt reading
some of the responses). I think I only saw 2 responses that actually
answered my query which I appreciate a great deal. The rest were all
focusing on my current reg setup or how well I cared for it, etc.

What I am is a still relatively inexperienced diver with a total of
126 dives. I am still learning to improve my technique. I am still
working out the kinks in my diving - I am a long ways from being an
excellent diver. This issue happens to be one of those kinks. I take
my diving seriously enough to maintain my gear well, to take my regs
in for servicing on a regualr basis (annually), to have my tank
inspected annually, etc. My life depends on my gear working so I take
NO chances with it. I trust the shop and the technician because I
have been going to this shop since it opened and the owners ran
another shop I frequented before they opened the new shop. I take
this sport seriously, while at the same time enjoying the hell out of
it. :) I am planning on taking a stress and rescue course in the near
future - mainly after I resolve some of these kinks in my diving. I
hope to eventually take a dive master course. I am definately not one
of these bloks that thinks that taking a basic open water course makes
me an expert diver (I have seen some like that on this list, fairly
recently, and I think most of us know of whom I speak). I try to keep
up with various publications and developments.

While I know a little about regulators in general, I am not that
knowledgable - can't tell the performance difference between diaphram
vs. piston, etc. That is one reason I put the question to the group
that I did - seeking wisdom from those more experienced on various
higher performance regulators. At the same time based on some
research I had done (reading about some models and innovations), I had
a general feeling that my 2nd stage reg was not performing as well at
greater depths compared to some of the more current models. I tried
to give some basic background on why I was considering an upgrade,
based on my personal observation comparing the breathing at 60' and
90'. I was not interested in dissecting my current rig - I had
intended to check with the dive shop already, I just had not gotten to
it when I posted my first message. My perception was that I was
having to work harder to inhale, and that the reg was probably not
optimal for diving below a certain depth. As it turns out my
perception was partially correct, as you will see below.

Anyway, I spent some time speaking with the technician (who is also a
diving instructor) this afternoon. The regs test out fine for airflow
throughout the range of tests. After discussing the situation with
him, I believe we came to a conclusion about what is happening.

My 2nd stage reg (US Divers SE3) is unbalanced and while it performs
well throughtout the tests, and is capable of deeper depths, it is not
really intended/aimed at diving beyond recreational limits (like I
said before, it was a low end model when I purchased it). The
unbalanced reg is having the effect of causing a SLIGHT difference in
effort required to breath, though this is just a minor piece of the
puzzle. The added density of the air (which I was aware of increasing
with depth - 2atm at 33', 3 atm at 66', 4atm at 99') is mostly what I
was noticing as the increased effort to inhale (felt kind of like
breathing through fabic - just a bit of added resistance to taking a
breath). The combination of the two factors is apparently triggering
a physiological response - a sense of oxygen deprivation which is
causing an increase in respiration rate.

He agreed that a 4 minute dip to a depth between 80 and 90 feet, with
the remainder of the dive being similar in profile to another dive
where depth did not exceed 70' and other factors being equal, should
not cause a difference of 15 minutes between the dive times. Five
minutes or so, yes, that I should expect. But, the physiological (not
psychological) response that I was having subconsciously would explain
it.

The question then came down to - what can I do that would help
alleviate/remedy/eliminate this response? If this response is due to
the perceived and actual increased difficulty (due to increased
density of the air) in breathing what could be done?

Can't do anything about the greater density of the air at depth. He
did suggest that a balanced 2nd stage would probably help some, would
make breathing a bit easier, but not as easy as it is at 60' (air
density being the unsolvable part). His thought is that a balanced
2nd stage with a diver adjustable venturi valve could help, it would
at least eliminate a factor.

The other factor is my physical characteristics. But this relates to
my overall bottem time at any depth - not just to this little problem.
I am a bit barrel chested and go through air quickly on my own - I'm
normally the first up out of a group regardless of how deep we go.
There is not much I can do about that - I can't shrink my lungs. But
I can make them more efficient with aerobic exercise (I am not exactly
in good shape anyway). This could also probably effect my
physiological response at depth.

Walter

Walter Willis wrote:

> (snip the yada yada yada)The other factor is my physical characteristics. But this relates to
> my overall bottem time at any depth - not just to this little problem.
> I am a bit barrel chested and go through air quickly on my own - I'm
> normally the first up out of a group regardless of how deep we go.
> There is not much I can do about that - I can't shrink my lungs. But
> I can make them more efficient with aerobic exercise (I am not exactly
> in good shape anyway). This could also probably effect my
> physiological response at depth.

Here's the deal, it ain't about the reg. It's all you. You want to know
why your reg breathes like crap at 70'? You're on the right track but
just to make sure take a look in a mirror, preferably a full length one.

Spare us the excuses about big lungs, barrel chests, and all that other
crap. The symptoms you describe in your post are probably due to too
much CO2, not lack of O2. And that comes from being fat and out of
shape. You're not barrel chested. You're fat and out of shape. Your
lungs aren't big. You're fat and out of shape.

Save the excuses for someone who believes them. They don't fly here.

Brian
Edmonton, Alberta

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 05:55:21 GMT, Brian Nadwidny <nadwidny@excite.com>
wrote:

>Walter Willis wrote:
>
>> (snip the yada yada yada)The other factor is my physical characteristics. But this relates to
>> my overall bottem time at any depth - not just to this little problem.
>> I am a bit barrel chested and go through air quickly on my own - I'm
>> normally the first up out of a group regardless of how deep we go.
>> There is not much I can do about that - I can't shrink my lungs. But
>> I can make them more efficient with aerobic exercise (I am not exactly
>> in good shape anyway). This could also probably effect my
>> physiological response at depth.
>
>Here's the deal, it ain't about the reg. It's all you. You want to know
>why your reg breathes like crap at 70'? You're on the right track but
>just to make sure take a look in a mirror, preferably a full length one.
>
>Spare us the excuses about big lungs, barrel chests, and all that other
>crap. The symptoms you describe in your post are probably due to too
>much CO2, not lack of O2. And that comes from being fat and out of
>shape. You're not barrel chested. You're fat and out of shape. Your
>lungs aren't big. You're fat and out of shape.
>
>Save the excuses for someone who believes them. They don't fly here.
>
>Brian
>Edmonton, Alberta

Well Brian, I congratulate you because you have the best eye sight in
the world, and also have the ability to figure out where someone lives
without being told - how else would you be able to see me from
Edmonton and make a statement about my weight.

I could weigh 160 pounds for all you know. Even at that weight I
could be out of shape due to having an office job. When I went in the
Navy in 1981 I weighed 165 lbs. I could not run 1 lap without being
totally winded. Six weeks later I was able to do 3 miles. My point
is - weight does not indicate fitness.

So, I might have a weight problem - you have no idea of how little or
how much. Some of the folks I dived with on my last trip weighed more
than I do and were able to remain underwater longer. So for some
reason I kind of doubt that my weight is the sole problem. I think it
has more to do with overall fitness which I admit I am not very fit.