Regulators that perform well at depths below 70 feet

In article <411d2a3d$0$82991$45beb828@newscene.com>,
"Walter Willis" <walter.willis@comcast.net> writes:

> ... When I dive above 70' I can
>get a total dive time of over 40 minutes. But as soon as I go below that
>level my total times falls below 30 minutes, ...

Do follow the prviously posted advice to get your regulator serviced.

However, you air supply will diminish more rapidly at greater depths.
At greater depths your 2nd stange provides air at greater pressure --
necessarily matching the greater ambient pressure at greater depth.
Consequently, each breath will reduce your tank pressure by a
greater mount.

Maybe you need to get out your Basic Open Water text and review this.

--
Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA
(hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

>
> > ... When I dive above 70' I
can
> >get a total dive time of over 40 minutes. But as soon as I go below that
> >level my total times falls below 30 minutes, ...
>
> Do follow the prviously posted advice to get your regulator serviced.
>
It is seviced annually, regardless of how many dives I have done during the
year. Since it is not used heavily during the year it is serviced once per
year. It was also overhauld in 2002 - completely.

> However, you air supply will diminish more rapidly at greater depths.
> At greater depths your 2nd stange provides air at greater pressure --
> necessarily matching the greater ambient pressure at greater depth.
> Consequently, each breath will reduce your tank pressure by a
> greater mount.
>
> Maybe you need to get out your Basic Open Water text and review this.
>

I am aware of the physics and that the ATM preassure is different the deeper
you go, and that you use more air at 99' than at 66'. But that does not
explain why if I go to 80-85' for a period of 3 minutes I loose 15 minutes
of dive time compared to staying 70' and above, yet if I go to 110' for a
comperable period I only loose 16-17 minutes compared to shallower. I would
expect to have a dive time shortened by maybe 4-5 minutes from a 3 minute
period at 80-85', not a 15 minute difference.

Walter

Walter Willis <walter.willis@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Responses would probably have been better if you had shared the brand and
>> model of your regulator.
>>
>Only if I was looking for recommendations of what to do with my current reg.
>:) But I am looking to upgrade because the one I bought in 1997 was at the
>low end of the models. I did not know then what kind of diving I would be
>doing nor how much nor how deep. It was a good starter reg.

This sort of attitude borders on trollish, Walter. It is incredibly relevent
what reg you have - how the hell can we make a recommendation for a replacement
without knowing the original? It's also rather easy to borrow or rent
a better rig to see.

Frankly, nothing really explains well what's going on with you. Even a low
performance reg will do well enough at 80; if not I think it would be evident
at any depth. The tuning knobs on my G250 are not used when I go deeper; many
feel that a properly tuned G200 (no knobs) is a good way to save a few bucks.

If it were deeper I'd wonder if you're getting narc'd and thus spiking your
SAC, even after you finish your spike. I've felt it as shallow as 90, but
usually not. Does depth make you nervous?

Are you getting cold? Are you hitting thermoclines at depth that stress the
body?
--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) wrote in message news:<D_2Uc.8077$tW.6780@news.cpqcorp.net>...
> However, you air supply will diminish more rapidly at greater depths.
> At greater depths your 2nd stange provides air at greater pressure --
> necessarily matching the greater ambient pressure at greater depth.
> Consequently, each breath will reduce your tank pressure by a
> greater mount.

Definitely worth knowing your normal surface-equivalent air
consumption, both for planning and monitoring. The math is easy, and
you should be able to find it in any decent scuba book.

For what it's worth, you should expect your dive time at 70' to be
about 10% less than at 60'; at 80' it should be about 18 percent less
(all else -- effort, temperature, etc. -- being equal).

> >Only if I was looking for recommendations of what to do with my current
reg.
> >:) But I am looking to upgrade because the one I bought in 1997 was at
the
> >low end of the models. I did not know then what kind of diving I would
be
> >doing nor how much nor how deep. It was a good starter reg.
>
> This sort of attitude borders on trollish, Walter. It is incredibly
relevent
> what reg you have - how the hell can we make a recommendation for a
replacement
> without knowing the original? It's also rather easy to borrow or rent
> a better rig to see.
>

In no way did I even intend to be trollish. I just did not feel, in my
opinion, that it was germaine to the discussion because I am looking for a
replacement. And that is why I put the little smiley emoticon there so
people would not think I was 'jumping down their throat' or such. But I can
certainly get the brand and model when I get home and post it since many do
think it is pertanant.

> Frankly, nothing really explains well what's going on with you. Even a
low
> performance reg will do well enough at 80; if not I think it would be
evident
> at any depth. The tuning knobs on my G250 are not used when I go deeper;
many
> feel that a properly tuned G200 (no knobs) is a good way to save a few
bucks.
>

If that were the case why do some regs come with a knob to open up the flow
when you are deeper? If the performance of the reg is 'even' throughout the
range, why would there be a need for a knob to open up the flow? Or is that
just a gimmick to get you to pay more?

> If it were deeper I'd wonder if you're getting narc'd and thus spiking
your
> SAC, even after you finish your spike. I've felt it as shallow as 90, but
> usually not. Does depth make you nervous?
>

Not at all, not anymore. There was some nervousness when I had not done
many dives deeper than 60', but I would not say I am nervous or scared
anylonger. Night dives - that's different - I still feel uneasy doing night
dives because I do get a little disoriented (I should do more so I learn to
overcome).

> Are you getting cold? Are you hitting thermoclines at depth that stress
the body?

No thermoclines either (though we did hit some during the trip but they were
not present on every dive and don't seem to have a connection - the coldest
I registered was a nice 81 degrees).

I will take my regs into the shop and speak with them about it, see what
they have to say. I just have not had the time since I returned from my
trip.

Walter

Walter

Realize that the LOCAL dive shop may NOT be the best place to get your
regulator serviced. INSIST on proof that whoever TOUCHES your
regulators are factory trained/factory certified to work on your regs.
Many dive shops DO NOT have repair folks factory trained/certified on
ALL the brand that they sell and "service"

Might be worth talking to the tech support folks at the company
headquarters and maybe even have the company service your regulator

Have seen some really screwed up repairs come out of dive shops over
the years

Also, the comment about replacing the first stage doesn't sound quite
kosher from here. Internal parts don't just get BENT in normal use,
but they SURE can get bent by a tech who screws things up. Saw a shop
"technian" break off a cap on an old USD regulator because he was not
aware that the cap had left hand threads, and kept getting bigger and
bigger wrenches until the metal failed. And he NEVER told the
customer that the problem was that the shop tech screwed up and broke
his working regulator

John

On 16 Aug 2004 17:07:10 -0500, "Walter Willis"
<walter.willis@comcast.net> wrote:

>> >Only if I was looking for recommendations of what to do with my current
>reg.
>> >:) But I am looking to upgrade because the one I bought in 1997 was at
>the
>> >low end of the models. I did not know then what kind of diving I would
>be
>> >doing nor how much nor how deep. It was a good starter reg.
>>
>> This sort of attitude borders on trollish, Walter. It is incredibly
>relevent
>> what reg you have - how the hell can we make a recommendation for a
>replacement
>> without knowing the original? It's also rather easy to borrow or rent
>> a better rig to see.
>>
>
>In no way did I even intend to be trollish. I just did not feel, in my
>opinion, that it was germaine to the discussion because I am looking for a
>replacement. And that is why I put the little smiley emoticon there so
>people would not think I was 'jumping down their throat' or such. But I can
>certainly get the brand and model when I get home and post it since many do
>think it is pertanant.
>
>> Frankly, nothing really explains well what's going on with you. Even a
>low
>> performance reg will do well enough at 80; if not I think it would be
>evident
>> at any depth. The tuning knobs on my G250 are not used when I go deeper;
>many
>> feel that a properly tuned G200 (no knobs) is a good way to save a few
>bucks.
>>
>
>If that were the case why do some regs come with a knob to open up the flow
>when you are deeper? If the performance of the reg is 'even' throughout the
>range, why would there be a need for a knob to open up the flow? Or is that
>just a gimmick to get you to pay more?
>
>> If it were deeper I'd wonder if you're getting narc'd and thus spiking
>your
>> SAC, even after you finish your spike. I've felt it as shallow as 90, but
>> usually not. Does depth make you nervous?
>>
>
>Not at all, not anymore. There was some nervousness when I had not done
>many dives deeper than 60', but I would not say I am nervous or scared
>anylonger. Night dives - that's different - I still feel uneasy doing night
>dives because I do get a little disoriented (I should do more so I learn to
>overcome).
>
>> Are you getting cold? Are you hitting thermoclines at depth that stress
>the body?
>
>No thermoclines either (though we did hit some during the trip but they were
>not present on every dive and don't seem to have a connection - the coldest
>I registered was a nice 81 degrees).
>
>I will take my regs into the shop and speak with them about it, see what
>they have to say. I just have not had the time since I returned from my
>trip.
>
>Walter
>

Before I dropped of my regs I noted what brand and model they are.
Second stage is US Divers SE2
First stage is Scubapro (has 2 hp, 4lp) - forgot to get the model as I
dropped it off at the scuba store though - usually setup with DIN.

I dropped it the regs at the scuba store for testing, with a request
that they call me first so I can explain the situation to them first.

Aside from that, I am still considering upgrading. If anything my son
will get the current setup when he gets certified (he recently
completed the scuba rangers program).

Walter


On 16 Aug 2004 17:07:10 -0500, "Walter Willis"
<walter.willis@comcast.net> wrote:

>> >Only if I was looking for recommendations of what to do with my current
>reg.
>> >:) But I am looking to upgrade because the one I bought in 1997 was at
>the
>> >low end of the models. I did not know then what kind of diving I would
>be
>> >doing nor how much nor how deep. It was a good starter reg.
>>
>> This sort of attitude borders on trollish, Walter. It is incredibly
>relevent
>> what reg you have - how the hell can we make a recommendation for a
>replacement
>> without knowing the original? It's also rather easy to borrow or rent
>> a better rig to see.
>>
>
>In no way did I even intend to be trollish. I just did not feel, in my
>opinion, that it was germaine to the discussion because I am looking for a
>replacement. And that is why I put the little smiley emoticon there so
>people would not think I was 'jumping down their throat' or such. But I can
>certainly get the brand and model when I get home and post it since many do
>think it is pertanant.
>
>> Frankly, nothing really explains well what's going on with you. Even a
>low
>> performance reg will do well enough at 80; if not I think it would be
>evident
>> at any depth. The tuning knobs on my G250 are not used when I go deeper;
>many
>> feel that a properly tuned G200 (no knobs) is a good way to save a few
>bucks.
>>
>
>If that were the case why do some regs come with a knob to open up the flow
>when you are deeper? If the performance of the reg is 'even' throughout the
>range, why would there be a need for a knob to open up the flow? Or is that
>just a gimmick to get you to pay more?
>
>> If it were deeper I'd wonder if you're getting narc'd and thus spiking
>your
>> SAC, even after you finish your spike. I've felt it as shallow as 90, but
>> usually not. Does depth make you nervous?
>>
>
>Not at all, not anymore. There was some nervousness when I had not done
>many dives deeper than 60', but I would not say I am nervous or scared
>anylonger. Night dives - that's different - I still feel uneasy doing night
>dives because I do get a little disoriented (I should do more so I learn to
>overcome).
>
>> Are you getting cold? Are you hitting thermoclines at depth that stress
>the body?
>
>No thermoclines either (though we did hit some during the trip but they were
>not present on every dive and don't seem to have a connection - the coldest
>I registered was a nice 81 degrees).
>
>I will take my regs into the shop and speak with them about it, see what
>they have to say. I just have not had the time since I returned from my
>trip.
>
>Walter
>

On 16 Aug 2004 13:13:27 -0500, "Walter Willis"
<walter.willis@comcast.net> wrote:

>>
>> > ... When I dive above 70' I
>can
>> >get a total dive time of over 40 minutes. But as soon as I go below that
>> >level my total times falls below 30 minutes, ...
>>
>> Do follow the prviously posted advice to get your regulator serviced.
>>
>It is seviced annually, regardless of how many dives I have done during the
>year. Since it is not used heavily during the year it is serviced once per
>year. It was also overhauld in 2002 - completely.
>
>> However, you air supply will diminish more rapidly at greater depths.
>> At greater depths your 2nd stange provides air at greater pressure --
>> necessarily matching the greater ambient pressure at greater depth.
>> Consequently, each breath will reduce your tank pressure by a
>> greater mount.
>>
>> Maybe you need to get out your Basic Open Water text and review this.
>>
>
>I am aware of the physics and that the ATM preassure is different the deeper
>you go, and that you use more air at 99' than at 66'. But that does not
>explain why if I go to 80-85' for a period of 3 minutes I loose 15 minutes
>of dive time compared to staying 70' and above, yet if I go to 110' for a
>comperable period I only loose 16-17 minutes compared to shallower. I would
>expect to have a dive time shortened by maybe 4-5 minutes from a 3 minute
>period at 80-85', not a 15 minute difference.
>
>Walter
>

Sounds to me like you are using an air-integrated dive computer to
determine your expected TBT at that depth. They may be programming a
conservative estimate when you cross into 80 fsw territory.

You need to specify your regulator make/model and dive computer
make/model so others may be able to identify what's going on.

An A-I DC could also be measuring your respiration rate and volume and
even though you deny anxiousness, the computer is measuring an
increase in your air consumption at that depth that is not a linear
function of your depth.

In article <fvp2i01ekvjp55nskh97if1kg6l6c6jl3n@4ax.com>, Walter Willis
<walter.willis@comcast.net> wrote:

> Before I dropped of my regs I noted what brand and model they are.
> Second stage is US Divers SE2
> First stage is Scubapro (has 2 hp, 4lp)

Almost all SP 1st's have 2 HP and 4 LP ports

> - forgot to get the model as I
> dropped it off at the scuba store though - usually setup with DIN.

Usually setup with DIN???

If you're regularily changing your 1st stages back and forth from DIN
to yokes, I'd expect you'd know a lot more about regulators than the
rest of your postings suggest.


>
> I dropped it the regs at the scuba store for testing, with a request
> that they call me first so I can explain the situation to them first.
>
> Aside from that, I am still considering upgrading. If anything my son
> will get the current setup when he gets certified (he recently
> completed the scuba rangers program).
>

For comparison, a Scubapro Mk2/R190 (bottom of the line first and
second stage)s breathes fine at 100 fsw (at least in my personal
experience, comparing it with an Apeks T100). The Mk2 doesn't maintain
great regulation as the tank pressure drops (as expected with an
unbalanced design) and the R190 is somewhat large, but even as a bottom
of the line regulator, it wouldn't make a big difference in SAC rate
under low stress diving conditions.

There's nothing wrong with buying new gear, but unless there's
something out of order with your current regulator, don't expect a new
toy to make much of a difference in your bottom time below
60/80/100/130 ft.


> Walter
>
>
> On 16 Aug 2004 17:07:10 -0500, "Walter Willis"
> <walter.willis@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >> >Only if I was looking for recommendations of what to do with my current
> >reg.
> >> >:) But I am looking to upgrade because the one I bought in 1997 was at
> >the
> >> >low end of the models. I did not know then what kind of diving I would
> >be
> >> >doing nor how much nor how deep. It was a good starter reg.
> >>
> >> This sort of attitude borders on trollish, Walter. It is incredibly
> >relevent
> >> what reg you have - how the hell can we make a recommendation for a
> >replacement
> >> without knowing the original? It's also rather easy to borrow or rent
> >> a better rig to see.
> >>
> >
> >In no way did I even intend to be trollish. I just did not feel, in my
> >opinion, that it was germaine to the discussion because I am looking for a
> >replacement. And that is why I put the little smiley emoticon there so
> >people would not think I was 'jumping down their throat' or such. But I can
> >certainly get the brand and model when I get home and post it since many do
> >think it is pertanant.
> >
> >> Frankly, nothing really explains well what's going on with you. Even a
> >low
> >> performance reg will do well enough at 80; if not I think it would be
> >evident
> >> at any depth. The tuning knobs on my G250 are not used when I go deeper;
> >many
> >> feel that a properly tuned G200 (no knobs) is a good way to save a few
> >bucks.
> >>
> >
> >If that were the case why do some regs come with a knob to open up the flow
> >when you are deeper? If the performance of the reg is 'even' throughout the
> >range, why would there be a need for a knob to open up the flow? Or is that
> >just a gimmick to get you to pay more?
> >
> >> If it were deeper I'd wonder if you're getting narc'd and thus spiking
> >your
> >> SAC, even after you finish your spike. I've felt it as shallow as 90, but
> >> usually not. Does depth make you nervous?
> >>
> >
> >Not at all, not anymore. There was some nervousness when I had not done
> >many dives deeper than 60', but I would not say I am nervous or scared
> >anylonger. Night dives - that's different - I still feel uneasy doing night
> >dives because I do get a little disoriented (I should do more so I learn to
> >overcome).
> >
> >> Are you getting cold? Are you hitting thermoclines at depth that stress
> >the body?
> >
> >No thermoclines either (though we did hit some during the trip but they were
> >not present on every dive and don't seem to have a connection - the coldest
> >I registered was a nice 81 degrees).
> >
> >I will take my regs into the shop and speak with them about it, see what
> >they have to say. I just have not had the time since I returned from my
> >trip.
> >
> >Walter
> >
>

Walter Willis <walter.willis@comcast.net> wrote:
>If that were the case why do some regs come with a knob to open up the flow
>when you are deeper? If the performance of the reg is 'even' throughout the
>range, why would there be a need for a knob to open up the flow? Or is that
>just a gimmick to get you to pay more?

The primary use for the knob is actually to close down the flow - a high
performance reg that is out of tune tends to free flow spectacularly. Beyond that,
yeah, it's marketing. A decent reg will work great throughout the recreational
depth range without any need to tune. Jaw fit on the mouthpiece and any pull on
the hose would make a bigger difference. At 100ft in a crisis with both people
drawing on the same reg, a lower quality first stage might show itself.

I saw in another post that you were considering giving this questionable rig
to your kid. WTF?? I don't think sub teens should be diving period, but even
at shallow depths he shouldn't be using a reg you don't have faith in for yourself.
--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com