Suunto Cobra Dive Manager software and PO2 setting

On 18 Aug 2004 08:35:54 -0700, robdew@yahoo.com (Rob) wrote:

>I just downloaded a first set of dives from my cobra where the max PO2
>was set different from the default of 1.4.
>
>All the dives downloaded with a PO2 Max of 1.4 (in the DC Settings
>tab) even though I double checked and it's still set differently.
>
>Does the PC transfer function ignore this setting for the dive?

Apparently so. Mine ignores it for my Vyper as well.

It may as well ignore it, since the program ignores it for everything
except when it sounds the warning beep... you can set it to 1.6, or as
high as it'll let you go, and the moment you exceed 107ft on EAN32 (a
true 1.4), you've got 15 minutes before it'll be beeping at you for
exceeding 100% OLF.



--- Rich
http://richlockyer.tripod.com/

In article <b688i0hjqa1t8m10eihbha31s1jalj8b65@4ax.com>,
Rich Lockyer <rlockyer@linkline.DONTSPAMME.com> wrote:
>
>
>On 18 Aug 2004 08:35:54 -0700, robdew@yahoo.com (Rob) wrote:
>
>>I just downloaded a first set of dives from my cobra where the max PO2
>>was set different from the default of 1.4.
>>
>>All the dives downloaded with a PO2 Max of 1.4 (in the DC Settings
>>tab) even though I double checked and it's still set differently.
>>
>>Does the PC transfer function ignore this setting for the dive?
>
>Apparently so. Mine ignores it for my Vyper as well.
>
>It may as well ignore it, since the program ignores it for everything
>except when it sounds the warning beep... you can set it to 1.6, or as
>high as it'll let you go, and the moment you exceed 107ft on EAN32 (a
>true 1.4), you've got 15 minutes before it'll be beeping at you for
>exceeding 100% OLF.

Yep.

And by the way, this was reported to Suunto (by me) who basically told me to
fuck off.

Despite 107' not setting off the alarm with it set to 1.4 (108' will) Suunto
claims its perfectly ok for them to claim you will tox in 15 minutes.

This despite the fact that they know its fucked - the Vytec, which was
introduced later, doesn't behave the same way.

-
--
Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net
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"Karl Denninger" <karl@FS.Denninger.Net> wrote in message
news:9OnVc.29680$nx2.4904@newsread2.news.atl.earth link.net...
>
> In article <b688i0hjqa1t8m10eihbha31s1jalj8b65@4ax.com>,
> Rich Lockyer <rlockyer@linkline.DONTSPAMME.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >On 18 Aug 2004 08:35:54 -0700, robdew@yahoo.com (Rob) wrote:
> >
> >>I just downloaded a first set of dives from my cobra where the max PO2
> >>was set different from the default of 1.4.
> >>
> >>All the dives downloaded with a PO2 Max of 1.4 (in the DC Settings
> >>tab) even though I double checked and it's still set differently.
> >>
> >>Does the PC transfer function ignore this setting for the dive?
> >
> >Apparently so. Mine ignores it for my Vyper as well.
> >
> >It may as well ignore it, since the program ignores it for everything
> >except when it sounds the warning beep... you can set it to 1.6, or as
> >high as it'll let you go, and the moment you exceed 107ft on EAN32 (a
> >true 1.4), you've got 15 minutes before it'll be beeping at you for
> >exceeding 100% OLF.
>
> Yep.
>
> And by the way, this was reported to Suunto (by me) who basically told me to
> fuck off.

Maybe because you called them mother fuckers?


>
> Despite 107' not setting off the alarm with it set to 1.4 (108' will) Suunto
> claims its perfectly ok for them to claim you will tox in 15 minutes.
>
> This despite the fact that they know its fucked - the Vytec, which was
> introduced later, doesn't behave the same way.
>
> -
> --
> Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
> http://www.denninger.net My home on the net
> http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
> http://boaterforum.com Talk about Boating online - any topic, any time!
> http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A LIMITED TIME!

In article <NkrVc.7864$3O3.7509@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink. net>,
Adam Helberg <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"Karl Denninger" <karl@FS.Denninger.Net> wrote in message
>news:9OnVc.29680$nx2.4904@newsread2.news.atl.eart hlink.net...
>>
>> In article <b688i0hjqa1t8m10eihbha31s1jalj8b65@4ax.com>,
>> Rich Lockyer <rlockyer@linkline.DONTSPAMME.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >On 18 Aug 2004 08:35:54 -0700, robdew@yahoo.com (Rob) wrote:
>> >
>> >>I just downloaded a first set of dives from my cobra where the max PO2
>> >>was set different from the default of 1.4.
>> >>
>> >>All the dives downloaded with a PO2 Max of 1.4 (in the DC Settings
>> >>tab) even though I double checked and it's still set differently.
>> >>
>> >>Does the PC transfer function ignore this setting for the dive?
>> >
>> >Apparently so. Mine ignores it for my Vyper as well.
>> >
>> >It may as well ignore it, since the program ignores it for everything
>> >except when it sounds the warning beep... you can set it to 1.6, or as
>> >high as it'll let you go, and the moment you exceed 107ft on EAN32 (a
>> >true 1.4), you've got 15 minutes before it'll be beeping at you for
>> >exceeding 100% OLF.
>>
>> Yep.
>>
>> And by the way, this was reported to Suunto (by me) who basically told me to
>> fuck off.
>
>Maybe because you called them mother fuckers?

On the contrary.

I did, however, allege that their behavior was not only in violation of any
reasonable understanding of O2 loading, but was in addition unsafe, as a
relatively unskilled diver might react to that CNS alarm with a rapid
ascent - and get hurt.

In short, the computer gives advice that is simply wrong, but Suunto thinks
that's just fine.

I disagree.

--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://boaterforum.com Talk about Boating online - any topic, any time!
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On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:21:57 GMT, karl@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl
Denninger) wrote:

>And by the way, this was reported to Suunto (by me) who basically told me to
>fuck off.

Of course. They don't want to get sued by someone's widow who sets
their PO2 limit to 2.0 and toxes.

>Despite 107' not setting off the alarm with it set to 1.4 (108' will) Suunto
>claims its perfectly ok for them to claim you will tox in 15 minutes.

Which means that you set the alarm limit to 1.6 and ignore the beeping
when it DOES tox you out. Just do your O2 exposure the old fashioned
way... you're not going to violate an actual limit doing rec dives
below 1.4 anyways unless you're on a liveaboard and "living" at your
NDL for the whole week.

>This despite the fact that they know its fucked - the Vytec, which was
>introduced later, doesn't behave the same way.

Interesting... adjustable, or is it's default actually closer to the
NOAA tables?



--- Rich
http://richlockyer.tripod.com/

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:27:20 GMT, karl@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl
Denninger) wrote:

>In short, the computer gives advice that is simply wrong, but Suunto thinks
>that's just fine.

Which is why you're perfectly free to use the gauge mode :)



--- Rich
http://richlockyer.tripod.com/

In article <okrdi09rs7btokkrfjhbakccsbjhqjuecr@4ax.com>,
Rich Lockyer <rlockyer@linkline.DONTSPAMME.com> wrote:
>
>
>On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:27:20 GMT, karl@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl
>Denninger) wrote:
>
>>In short, the computer gives advice that is simply wrong, but Suunto thinks
>>that's just fine.
>
>Which is why you're perfectly free to use the gauge mode :)

Yep. :)

It is, however, a bit expensive for a gauge - especially the COBRA....

--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://boaterforum.com Talk about Boating online - any topic, any time!
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In article <2erdi0t48gtihkssg5bcnuavao9e7glnge@4ax.com>,
Rich Lockyer <rlockyer@linkline.DONTSPAMME.com> wrote:
>
>
>On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:21:57 GMT, karl@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl
>Denninger) wrote:
>
>>And by the way, this was reported to Suunto (by me) who basically told me to
>>fuck off.
>
>Of course. They don't want to get sued by someone's widow who sets
>their PO2 limit to 2.0 and toxes.

Uh, the limit all three allow is 1.6. But it doesn't change anything; the
computer still behaves as if its 1.4 and plays "accelerator" as soon as you
exceed the 1.4 PO2.

IOW, all the "setting" does it control when it beeps at you for exceeding
the setpoint.

>>Despite 107' not setting off the alarm with it set to 1.4 (108' will) Suunto
>>claims its perfectly ok for them to claim you will tox in 15 minutes.
>
>Which means that you set the alarm limit to 1.6 and ignore the beeping
>when it DOES tox you out. Just do your O2 exposure the old fashioned
>way...

Yes.

> You're not going to violate an actual limit doing rec dives
>below 1.4 anyways unless you're on a liveaboard and "living" at your
>NDL for the whole week.

Well.... not necessarily. Its entirely possible to get a false tox alarm on
the Vyper or Cobra when you are at no risk of any such thing. 15 minutes is
entirely doable and within the NDLs at 107' on EANx32.

Of course if you then make a rapid ascent after staying for that length of
time you're asking for it, and the bad part is that it won't stop bitching
about the false tox alarm until you reach a PO2 of 0.5 (in this respect it
does obey NOAA's view, which is that CNS O2 loading does not stop until
you are under 0.5 PO2), which is at about 30' or so on EANx32.

>>This despite the fact that they know its fucked - the Vytec, which was
>>introduced later, doesn't behave the same way.
>
>Interesting... adjustable, or is it's default actually closer to the
>NOAA tables?

The Vytec is essentially spot on with the NOAA tables.

The manuals for all three say their CNS and OTU computations are "based on"
the NOAA tables. Its fair to say that they're very loosely correlated with
them in the case of the Vyper and Cobra, but are a reasonable interpretation
of them in the case of the Vytec.

All three also add 1% to the O2 percentage you set for CNS computations (set
32%, it acts as if you set 33%), and it appears that all fractions are also
rounded up internally. That's not a serious issue, although it is a minor
bother.

I like the Vytec for other reasons (particulaly that for Nitrox deco
dives I can use the computer as a backup decompression computation device,
even if I dive a Vplanner ascent profile - both the computer and table clear
at roughly the same time, so if I find myself way off the table for some
reason I have yet another backup.)

--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://boaterforum.com Talk about Boating online - any topic, any time!
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On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:30:31 GMT, karl@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl
Denninger) wrote:

>Uh, the limit all three allow is 1.6. But it doesn't change anything; the
>computer still behaves as if its 1.4 and plays "accelerator" as soon as you
>exceed the 1.4 PO2.
>
>IOW, all the "setting" does it control when it beeps at you for exceeding
>the setpoint.

Exactly.
I knew it maxed at 1.6... but if it weren't so conservative because of
lawsuits, we might actually see a 2.0 available limit.


>> You're not going to violate an actual limit doing rec dives
>>below 1.4 anyways unless you're on a liveaboard and "living" at your
>>NDL for the whole week.
>
>Well.... not necessarily. Its entirely possible to get a false tox alarm on
>the Vyper or Cobra when you are at no risk of any such thing. 15 minutes is
>entirely doable and within the NDLs at 107' on EANx32.

Of course.... I was saying that you aren't going to get to a REAL CNS
or OTU limit :)

>The Vytec is essentially spot on with the NOAA tables.

Interesting. I had heard that there was some adjustment that you
could make to force it to be less conservative. I never heard if that
was O2 or deco.

>All three also add 1% to the O2 percentage you set for CNS computations (set
>32%, it acts as if you set 33%), and it appears that all fractions are also
>rounded up internally. That's not a serious issue, although it is a minor
>bother.

I can't really disagree with this. It's exactly what we were trained
to do in our nitrox class. Always round up for O2 exposure and round
down for decompression calcs. It's rare that a blender can get you
right on 32%, so deco would be calc'd at 32, but CNS/OTU would be
calc'd at 33.
Little difference, regardless.

>I like the Vytec for other reasons (particulaly that for Nitrox deco
>dives I can use the computer as a backup decompression computation device,
>even if I dive a Vplanner ascent profile - both the computer and table clear
>at roughly the same time, so if I find myself way off the table for some
>reason I have yet another backup.)

That is good to hear. I assume you're running Vplanner on +3 or +4?


--- Rich
http://richlockyer.tripod.com/

In article <f91fi01mu9160p3956hjr0hb67s3p61i0g@4ax.com>,
Rich Lockyer <rlockyer@linkline.DONTSPAMME.com> wrote:
>
>On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:30:31 GMT, karl@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl
>Denninger) wrote:
>
>>Uh, the limit all three allow is 1.6. But it doesn't change anything; the
>>computer still behaves as if its 1.4 and plays "accelerator" as soon as you
>>exceed the 1.4 PO2.
>>
>>IOW, all the "setting" does it control when it beeps at you for exceeding
>>the setpoint.
>
>Exactly.
>I knew it maxed at 1.6... but if it weren't so conservative because of
>lawsuits, we might actually see a 2.0 available limit.

I don't mind a max of 1.6.

I do mind it ignoring what I set.

>>> You're not going to violate an actual limit doing rec dives
>>>below 1.4 anyways unless you're on a liveaboard and "living" at your
>>>NDL for the whole week.
>>
>>Well.... not necessarily. Its entirely possible to get a false tox alarm on
>>the Vyper or Cobra when you are at no risk of any such thing. 15 minutes is
>>entirely doable and within the NDLs at 107' on EANx32.
>
>Of course.... I was saying that you aren't going to get to a REAL CNS
>or OTU limit :)

True. But try explaining that to someone who buys the computer and hears it
yelling them "TOX TOX TOX!" at 110' 15 minutes into their dive, then does a
rockship ascent to get out of the "impending doom"!

I bet the AGE they can generate is very real, unlike the tox hit...

>>The Vytec is essentially spot on with the NOAA tables.
>
>Interesting. I had heard that there was some adjustment that you
>could make to force it to be less conservative. I never heard if that
>was O2 or deco.

Deco. I don't like the RGBM50 adjustments and what they do, and don't
use it. A big part of the problem is that Suunto won't tell me (or anyone,
apparently) exactly WHAT it does.

>>All three also add 1% to the O2 percentage you set for CNS computations (set
>>32%, it acts as if you set 33%), and it appears that all fractions are also
>>rounded up internally. That's not a serious issue, although it is a minor
>>bother.
>
>I can't really disagree with this. It's exactly what we were trained
>to do in our nitrox class. Always round up for O2 exposure and round
>down for decompression calcs. It's rare that a blender can get you
>right on 32%, so deco would be calc'd at 32, but CNS/OTU would be
>calc'd at 33.
>Little difference, regardless.

Yes and no.

What I do is my business. If the damn computer does it for me, then it
gets done TWICE, and that's silly. Yet I can't "undo" it, because if I
do then I'm understating my N2 exposure, and that could be bad.

>>I like the Vytec for other reasons (particulaly that for Nitrox deco
>>dives I can use the computer as a backup decompression computation device,
>>even if I dive a Vplanner ascent profile - both the computer and table clear
>>at roughly the same time, so if I find myself way off the table for some
>>reason I have yet another backup.)
>
>That is good to hear. I assume you're running Vplanner on +3 or +4?

I run Vplanner at +2.

Nominal is a bit too aggressive for my taste; +2 is a bit conservative, but
I generally err on that side as I don't mind the extra few minutes of hang
time.

I'd rather get out clean than get out fast.

--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://boaterforum.com Talk about Boating online - any topic, any time!
http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A LIMITED TIME!