New Equipment

Dick wrote:
>
> Love to hear any comments from experienced divers..Maybe I'm missing
> something!
>
>

Yes, you posted this same troll to 'Scubaboard' yesterday.

1 - Use the horse collar if that is what you are comfortable with.
BCDs are primarity bouncy CONTROL devices, and emergecny flotation as
a distent 2nd function If you adjust so you you are slightly negative
at 10ft with a full tank, you are going to 4-5pounds positive at the
end of the dive with less than 300psi left in the tank (ie, when you
pull the Jvalve), and that can make it awfully hard to maintain a
safety stop at the end of a dive. So, you weight yourself to be
neutral or slightly negative at the END of the dive and use whatever
bouncy control device you have to keep you neutral through out the
dive

2 - Octopus is more for your buddy, do you intent to knife him if he
comes up out of air and snatches your primary and refuses to give it
back?? Yank it away and let him drown??

3 - If you think you would NOT surface immediately if a SPG failed, OR
you are one of the idiots who ignore it - you are probably also the
same kind of guy who runs out of gas in his car. Would you like to
have a car that only told you when you have 5miles worth of gas left
before warning you that you were getting low? I don't think anyone
even makes a Jvalve anymore and they are way to easy to bump so that
they are non-functional. However, do what you want if you can find a
Jvalve for your equipment

You will find that most dive boats are NOT going to let you onboard if
you don't have an octopus and SPG, most will let you dive with a
horsecollar if that is what you like

And if you dive solo, just put up with the stuff in the class, then do
whatever you want to do, especially if you have your own boat.

Another oldtimer - been diving since the double hose regulator days
and I love my

John


On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:00:44 -0400, "Dick" <devil505@adelphia.net>
wrote:

>I am a 58 year old, experienced scuba diver (with over 20 years of diving
>under my belt) who was hit by a car in 1989 & hasn't been diving since. I
>now want to get back into the sport but, having been away from it for so
>long I decided to take a basic "Open Water Diver" course at my local dive
>shop to familiarize myself with new equipment & to finally get certified.
>(Yes...I am one of those "Mike Nelson" of Sea Hunt guys that has plenty of
>experience but never felt the need to get certified)
>
>Anyway, I am a safe diver who lives in Massachusetts and all of my diving is
>lobster hunting in fairly shallow water. (60' or less)
>
>I am about halfway through the Open Water course & find that I don't really
>like, or feel that I need, some of the newer equipment. For example:
>
>
>
> 1.. The BCD.......I find it extremely cumbersome, expensive to buy, a
>waste of tank air, just another thing to keep cleaned & serviced, and a
>device that has very limited utility for my type of diving. (Unless I'm
>missing something, why not the old "Horse Collar" flotation device to
>accomplish the same emergency flotation results at a fraction of the cost? I
>have never liked being bulky, while diving, & I always had good buoyancy
>control by simply using the correct amount of weights. (I used 20 lbs of
>weight, which made me slightly positively buoyant on the surface but
>slightly negatively buoyant on the bottom.)
> 2.. The Octopus Regulator...Why not just "Buddy Breath" in the unlikely
>event (never have needed to in over 20 years of diving) that your buddy
>needs your air while under?? Again, I don't like all the additional hoses &
>crap hanging off of me while under!
> 3.. What was wrong with the old "J" valve?
>Everything now seems to be geared for the "K" valve, with no reserve..The
>idea is that the SPG will tell you all you need to know about your remaining
>air. Suppose the SPG fails or you get so busy that you fail to watch it
>carefully??
>
>At least with the old "J" valve, when you felt that familiar "getting hard
>to breath" feeling you could just pull the reserve handle & you had plenty
>of air to finish your dive & surface. As part of my normal dive routine I
>would always check the reserve handle (a few times during a dive) to make
>sure that it was still cocked. (In a real emergency you can always just dump
>your weights and "Blow & Go!) A good dive watch, common sense and experience
>tells you all you need to know.
>
>I would always plan my dives so that I would be fairly close to my boat (or
>the beach if beach diving) at the end of a dive anyway.
>
>
>
>
>
>Call me old fashioned, but I think a lot of this new stuff just causes more
>dependence on systems that can fail, causes drag in the water, creates more
>work to maintain, costs a fortune to buy and uses up precious tank air that
>will cost you a few lobsters that you wont have enough air to get!
>
>
>
>
>
>Love to hear any comments from experienced divers..Maybe I'm missing
>something!
>

"I decided to take a basic "Open Water Diver" course at my local dive shop
to familiarize myself with new equipment & to finally get certified."

It sounds like your getting what you wanted. Sure, you'll probably always
remember Sea Hunt.

"Dick" wrote

Welcome to rec.scuba equipment from one diving dinasaur to another. I'm 57.
I started diving in 1962 and got my first C card in 1969 because I was
having problems getting air fills without one. For the first 30 years, dove
pretty much like you describe except without even the horsecollar you
mention. I purchased my first bcd and octopus in 1991, when my wife was
certified. For the first time ever, I wanted to let somebody else drive the
boat to the dive sites and, without a bcd and octopus, they would not let me
aboard. This, of course, brings me to the first answer to your question.
You need a certification and certain equipment to satisfy the providers of
services you want. Like any other self regulated industry, the industry
makes most of the rules.

> 1.. The BCD . . . why not the "Horse Collar" flotation device to
> accomplish the same emergency flotation results at a fraction of the cost?

No particular reason unless there is a rule that the device be self
inflating. The point of a bcd, however, is not primarily for emergency
flotation at the surface. It's for adjusting buoyancy during the dive.
When you and I started diving, the common tank was a 72 cubic foot model.
The total weight shift during the dive was relatively insignifiant. We
adjusted by changing our breathing patterns a bit and, if necessary, by
finning in the correct direction. As tank sizes grew, the buoyancy shift
due to use of gas increased, making it increasingly difficult to adjust
without something like a bcd to assist. These days, I still dive with no
gas in my bcd when using an 80 cubic foot tank, but use just a little my bcd
during the initial stages of a dive with my high pressure 100 cubic foot
tanks. It's not necessary, but it's convenient. By the way, if you like
the way you have been diving in the past, don't miss the plate and wing gear
option. I'm currently using a stainless steel plate, very much like the old
plastic back packs, with a flotation bladder that goes between the plate and
the tank. The harness and, for that matter, the entire setup, is very much
like what you are used to and very streamlined. It is not, however, very
cheap.

> 2.. The Octopus Regulator...Why not just "Buddy Breath" in the unlikely
> event (never have needed to in over 20 years of diving) that your buddy
> needs your air while under?? Again, I don't like all the additional hoses
> & crap hanging off of me while under!

There's little question that it's easier to share gas with a separate
regulator than with only one. It's also pretty certain that there is a
degree of calming effect to having exclusive use of a second stage that
stays in your mouth during an emergency situation. The biggest reason for
complying with this one, however, is probably the fact that most divers you
will encounter, never learned to buddy breathe and, since it takes two to
accomplish, it is probably best to comply with what others know.

> 3.. What was wrong with the old "J" valve?

Never had one. Your J valve is, to me, like the octopus is to you,
unnecessary . . . provided you have an unbalanced first stage. The
unbalanced first stage got harder to breathe when the tank was down to about
500 psi. For many of us, that was enough to tell us when to surface. We
didn't need a reserve on top of that. When balanced first stages became the
standard, the J valve became desirable, at least until submersible pressure
guages became the norm. The biggest problem with the J valves was that many
forgot to open it for a fill and then close it for the dive. Failure to do
either, defeated it's purpose. You were actually better off without one,
because you did not depend on it, than you were with one that didn't
function.

> At least with the old "J" valve, when you felt that familiar "getting hard
> to breath" feeling you could just pull the reserve handle & you had plenty
> of air to finish your dive & surface.

> In a real emergency you can always just dump your weights and "Blow & Go!

You can, but the odds of getting bent are greatly increased.

> A good dive watch, common sense and experience tells you all you need to
> know.

A good dive computer tells you a lot more. Since when was common sense,
common?

> Call me old fashioned, but I think a lot of this new stuff just causes
> more dependence on systems that can fail, causes drag in the water,
> creates more work to maintain, costs a fortune to buy and uses up precious
> tank air that will cost you a few lobsters that you wont have enough air
> to get!

OK, you're old fashioned. You're also right. There are, however,
advantages to each change the industry has experienced that most feel are
worth the incremental inconvenience that accompanied them. Today, if you
were to view me underwater from the front, you would notice very little
different from the way I looked 40 plus years ago. The exceptions is the
octopus I wear on a short hose that is necklaced under my chin (my octopus
is for my use only, you get the primary). From the rear, you can see the
wing too.

> Love to hear any comments from experienced divers..Maybe I'm missing
> something!

You're missing a little, but not much. Fact is, if you're happy diving the
way you have been since the beginning and you don't care about not being
able to use commercial dive boats, keep on as you have in the past.
Otherwise, see what you can do to make the conveniences of modern equipment
work for you with as little effort as possible.

By the way, if you really like J valves and are having trouble finding them,
I think I have a couple around here somewhere. If you want them, let me
know and I'll see if I can find and send them. They came off a couple of
pre 1988 Luxfer tanks that I drilled and recycled as scrap aluminum. I
figured that somebody, somewhere, would want them.

Lee

"Dick" <devil505@adelphia.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting
in:
: (Unless I'm
:missing something, why not the old "Horse Collar" flotation device to
:accomplish the same emergency flotation results at a fraction of the cost? I
:have never liked being bulky, while diving, & I always had good buoyancy
:control by simply using the correct amount of weights.

Having started with a Horse Collar, here are the reasons I would not
buy one.

1. Too hard to put on a horse collar, tank (separate harness), and
weight belt. A stab jacket (or back inflate BC) and weight belt is
much easier. A modern BC with weight pockets is even easier.

2. Modern stab jackets or back inflate BCs are make surface swiims
much easier.

3. I'm not sure anyone sells horse collars anymore.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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"Dick" <devil505@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> I am about halfway through the Open Water course & find that I don't really
> like, or feel that I need, some of the newer equipment. For example:
>
> 1.. The BCD.......I find it extremely cumbersome, expensive to buy, a
> waste of tank air, just another thing to keep cleaned & serviced, and a
> device that has very limited utility for my type of diving. (Unless I'm
> missing something, why not the old "Horse Collar" flotation device to
> accomplish the same emergency flotation results at a fraction of the cost?

Partly because even a horsecollar isn't cheap these days, so we may as
well buy something that can be more comfortable & functional to the
desired tasks.


> I have never liked being bulky, while diving, & I always had good buoyancy
> control by simply using the correct amount of weights. (I used 20 lbs of
> weight, which made me slightly positively buoyant on the surface but
> slightly negatively buoyant on the bottom.)

The basic reason is because even when we used horsecollars, we used them
for achieving neutral buoyancy during the dives...and its been this way
for 20+ years, so it is time-proven.

And there's a pretty significant difference in diving control and
enjoyment when you have your buoyancy dialed-in to within a few pounds,
as opposed to what you appear to be suggesting. Granted, you can
fill/empty a BC with the old oral inflator, but the ease and convenience
(and better air efficiency!) of a power inflator is worth its cost.


> 2.. The Octopus Regulator...Why not just "Buddy Breath"...

Because Buddy Breathing incurs higher work taskloading than the two
regulator solution (which makes it not as good), and hardware costs have
come down sufficiently to make the two-reg solution acceptably
affordable.


> 3.. What was wrong with the old "J" valve?

Its function been superceded by Pressure Gages and dive computers. But
if you still want a J, as of a few years ago, they were still available
for sale brand new...Sherwood, I think.



> Call me old fashioned, but I think a lot of this new stuff just causes more
> dependence on systems that can fail, causes drag in the water, creates more
> work to maintain, costs a fortune to buy and uses up precious tank air that
> will cost you a few lobsters that you wont have enough air to get!

All true, but mechanical devices today tend to be more objectively
reliable than their human-based skill equivalents, because of the
perishability of these skills.


-hh

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:00:44 -0400, Dick wrote:
> 1.. The BCD.

The BCD is not intended for emergency surface flotation as its primary
function. Its primary purpose is buoyancy control during the dive.

Your buoyancy will change with depth if you're diving a compressible suit
(e.g., a wetsuit), and as you consume gas from your cylinder. You still need
to weight yourself properly, but once you've done that, you use the BCD to
make small adjustments to stay neutrally buoyant throughout the dive.

I really enjoy being able to stay in a spot without having to constantly fin
to maintain depth (yes, surge and current are another matter). My gas
consumption is lower as a result. There are other advantages to being
neutrally buoyant, especially when combined with proper trim.

> 2.. The Octopus Regulator.

Gas sharing with a second regulator is a lot less stressful to both divers
than buddy breathing.

> 3.. What was wrong with the old "J" valve?

The K-valve is mechanically simpler. That alone makes it more reliable (though
I don't think the failure rate of J-valves is all that high).

I keep an SPG clipped to my waist band, on the left. Its no burden to unclip
it to check the reading once in a while. On many dives, I have enough
experience in similar conditions to know what to expect it to tell me, so the
SPG has become a backup device, a sort of sanity check.

The SPG is a key component in dive planning. My dives, almost without
exception, involve returning to a starting point to end the dive. The reading
on my SPG is one of the elements that goes into deciding when to "turn" the
dive.

I wouldn't dive without one.

> Call me old fashioned, but I think a lot of this new stuff just causes more
> dependence on systems that can fail, causes drag in the water, creates more
> work to maintain, costs a fortune to buy and uses up precious tank air that
> will cost you a few lobsters that you wont have enough air to get!

I empathize with you just a little. It sure would be nice to dive without so
much stuff. Its a PITA to dress and set up all of this gear, and it sure did
cost a little. On the other hand, I've had the same gear for 4 or 5 years now.
Its been very reliable, the cost of maintenance hasn't been unbearable, and
setting it up and diving with it have become second nature. Still, it would
be nice if all I needed was that tiny James Bond rebreather and fins and a
swimsuit.

Some additional drag over your old configuration is unavoidable. But there are
configuration options that can reduce the drag contributed by the extra gear,
including back-inflation BDCs, and careful routing of hoses.

I think you'll find that, overall, your gas supply will last a bit longer if
you use a BCD and acquire the skill to maintain neutral buoyancy.

And, finally, some charter dive boats will require that you have a BCD, SPG,
and bottom timer (or dive computer). That's probably the bottom line.

--
Art Greenberg

Thanks for all your replies & I realize that to dive charter boats (something I intend to do on vacations) I will have to be able to use all the equipment we are discussing, which is one of the reasons why I am taking the PADI Open Water course. (The other main reason is to see how I'll do (under supervised conditions) 15 years past the "closed head injury" I suffered in 1989 & to finally get certified)
I guess my main complaint is really that I am getting the feeling that PADI is at least as interested a dive merchandising as they are in basic dive safety! I still feel that, for the relatively shallow diving that I do, a BCD is of very limited utility for buoyancy control....which was never a problem for me in the first place. As far as it's safety value for flotation........$500.00 can buy allot of Horse Collars or Mae Wests!
I think I will follow some suggestions & try the "Wing" type of BC while I'm still in the class pool as they seem to be much less bulky (when you're trying to squeeze in between boulders to dig out a lobster) & less expensive to buy.



"Art Greenberg" <none@none.invalid> wrote in message news:LMREe.16449$aY6.6359@newsread1.news.atl.earth link.net...
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:00:44 -0400, Dick wrote:
>> 1.. The BCD.
>
> The BCD is not intended for emergency surface flotation as its primary
> function. Its primary purpose is buoyancy control during the dive.
>
> Your buoyancy will change with depth if you're diving a compressible suit
> (e.g., a wetsuit), and as you consume gas from your cylinder. You still need
> to weight yourself properly, but once you've done that, you use the BCD to
> make small adjustments to stay neutrally buoyant throughout the dive.
>
> I really enjoy being able to stay in a spot without having to constantly fin
> to maintain depth (yes, surge and current are another matter). My gas
> consumption is lower as a result. There are other advantages to being
> neutrally buoyant, especially when combined with proper trim.
>
>> 2.. The Octopus Regulator.
>
> Gas sharing with a second regulator is a lot less stressful to both divers
> than buddy breathing.
>
>> 3.. What was wrong with the old "J" valve?
>
> The K-valve is mechanically simpler. That alone makes it more reliable (though
> I don't think the failure rate of J-valves is all that high).
>
> I keep an SPG clipped to my waist band, on the left. Its no burden to unclip
> it to check the reading once in a while. On many dives, I have enough
> experience in similar conditions to know what to expect it to tell me, so the
> SPG has become a backup device, a sort of sanity check.
>
> The SPG is a key component in dive planning. My dives, almost without
> exception, involve returning to a starting point to end the dive. The reading
> on my SPG is one of the elements that goes into deciding when to "turn" the
> dive.
>
> I wouldn't dive without one.
>
>> Call me old fashioned, but I think a lot of this new stuff just causes more
>> dependence on systems that can fail, causes drag in the water, creates more
>> work to maintain, costs a fortune to buy and uses up precious tank air that
>> will cost you a few lobsters that you wont have enough air to get!
>
> I empathize with you just a little. It sure would be nice to dive without so
> much stuff. Its a PITA to dress and set up all of this gear, and it sure did
> cost a little. On the other hand, I've had the same gear for 4 or 5 years now.
> Its been very reliable, the cost of maintenance hasn't been unbearable, and
> setting it up and diving with it have become second nature. Still, it would
> be nice if all I needed was that tiny James Bond rebreather and fins and a
> swimsuit.
>
> Some additional drag over your old configuration is unavoidable. But there are
> configuration options that can reduce the drag contributed by the extra gear,
> including back-inflation BDCs, and careful routing of hoses.
>
> I think you'll find that, overall, your gas supply will last a bit longer if
> you use a BCD and acquire the skill to maintain neutral buoyancy.
>
> And, finally, some charter dive boats will require that you have a BCD, SPG,
> and bottom timer (or dive computer). That's probably the bottom line.
>
> --
> Art Greenberg

In article <zqKdndcYYPBYuXnfRVn-vg@adelphia.com>, Dick
<devil505@adelphia.net> wrote:

€ Thanks for all your replies & I realize that to dive charter boats (something
€ I intend to do on vacations) I will have to be able to use all the equipment
€ we are discussing, which is one of the reasons why I am taking the PADI Open
€ Water course. (The other main reason is to see how I'll do (under supervised
€ conditions) 15 years past the "closed head injury" I suffered in 1989 & to
€ finally get certified)
€ I guess my main complaint is really that I am getting the feeling that PADI
€ is at least as interested a dive merchandising as they are in basic dive
€ safety! I still feel that, for the relatively shallow diving that I do, a BCD
€ is of very limited utility for buoyancy control....which was never a problem
€ for me in the first place. As far as it's safety value for
€ flotation........$500.00 can buy allot of Horse Collars or Mae Wests!
€ I think I will follow some suggestions & try the "Wing" type of BC while I'm
€ still in the class pool as they seem to be much less bulky (when you're
€ trying to squeeze in between boulders to dig out a lobster) & less expensive
€ to buy.
€
€

You definitely should try a backplate/wing in your PADI class. Since
you've correctly observed that PADI is far more about marketing the
dive industry than they are about training divers, and very few dive
shops like to carry BP/wings, you'd be thumbing your nose somewhat at
the marketing machine that's selling you a C-card. Unfortunately,
you'll find that BP/wings aren't all that cheap, although places like
here:

http://oxycheq.com/main.html

have them for somewhat less than Halcyon/OMS/Diverite, etc.



€
€ "Art Greenberg" <none@none.invalid> wrote in message
€ news:LMREe.16449$aY6.6359@newsread1.news.atl.earth link.net...
€ > On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:00:44 -0400, Dick wrote:
€ >> 1.. The BCD.
€ >
€ > The BCD is not intended for emergency surface flotation as its primary
€ > function. Its primary purpose is buoyancy control during the dive.
€ >
€ > Your buoyancy will change with depth if you're diving a compressible suit
€ > (e.g., a wetsuit), and as you consume gas from your cylinder. You still need
€ > to weight yourself properly, but once you've done that, you use the BCD to
€ > make small adjustments to stay neutrally buoyant throughout the dive.
€ >
€ > I really enjoy being able to stay in a spot without having to constantly fin
€ > to maintain depth (yes, surge and current are another matter). My gas
€ > consumption is lower as a result. There are other advantages to being
€ > neutrally buoyant, especially when combined with proper trim.
€ >
€ >> 2.. The Octopus Regulator.
€ >
€ > Gas sharing with a second regulator is a lot less stressful to both divers
€ > than buddy breathing.
€ >
€ >> 3.. What was wrong with the old "J" valve?
€ >
€ > The K-valve is mechanically simpler. That alone makes it more reliable
€ > (though
€ > I don't think the failure rate of J-valves is all that high).
€ >
€ > I keep an SPG clipped to my waist band, on the left. Its no burden to unclip
€ > it to check the reading once in a while. On many dives, I have enough
€ > experience in similar conditions to know what to expect it to tell me, so
€ > the
€ > SPG has become a backup device, a sort of sanity check.
€ >
€ > The SPG is a key component in dive planning. My dives, almost without
€ > exception, involve returning to a starting point to end the dive. The
€ > reading
€ > on my SPG is one of the elements that goes into deciding when to "turn" the
€ > dive.
€ >
€ > I wouldn't dive without one.
€ >
€ >> Call me old fashioned, but I think a lot of this new stuff just causes
€ >> more
€ >> dependence on systems that can fail, causes drag in the water, creates
€ >> more
€ >> work to maintain, costs a fortune to buy and uses up precious tank air
€ >> that
€ >> will cost you a few lobsters that you wont have enough air to get!
€ >
€ > I empathize with you just a little. It sure would be nice to dive without so
€ > much stuff. Its a PITA to dress and set up all of this gear, and it sure did
€ > cost a little. On the other hand, I've had the same gear for 4 or 5 years
€ > now.
€ > Its been very reliable, the cost of maintenance hasn't been unbearable, and
€ > setting it up and diving with it have become second nature. Still, it would
€ > be nice if all I needed was that tiny James Bond rebreather and fins and a
€ > swimsuit.
€ >
€ > Some additional drag over your old configuration is unavoidable. But there
€ > are
€ > configuration options that can reduce the drag contributed by the extra
€ > gear,
€ > including back-inflation BDCs, and careful routing of hoses.
€ >
€ > I think you'll find that, overall, your gas supply will last a bit longer if
€ > you use a BCD and acquire the skill to maintain neutral buoyancy.
€ >
€ > And, finally, some charter dive boats will require that you have a BCD, SPG,
€ > and bottom timer (or dive computer). That's probably the bottom line.
€ >
€ > --
€ > Art Greenberg

Dick wrote

> I guess my main complaint is really that I am getting the feeling that
> PADI is at least as interested a dive
> merchandising as they are in basic dive safety!

Then you should have said so. There are more than a few who would agree
with you.

> I still feel that, for the relatively shallow diving that I do, a BCD is
> of very limited utility for buoyancy control . . .

It is more useful in shallow water than in deep. The shallower you are, the
greater the perceived change in buoyancy is for each incremental change in
depth.

> I think I will follow some suggestions & try the "Wing" type of BC while
> I'm still in the class pool as they seem to
> be much less bulky (when you're trying to squeeze in between boulders to
> dig out a lobster) & less expensive to buy.

It's certainly less bulky, but it's probably not a lot cheaper.

Lee