Which dive computer would you choose?

Irene wrote:
> "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:fjtif.37390$6y4.33971@bignews3.bellsouth.net. ..
>> You would not love or recommend them if you dove nitrox at a PPO2 of 1.4
>> or more.
>>
>> My last dive trip lasted 2.5 days. I logged 16 dives during the period.
>> You could not have matched my profiles with any of the computers you are
>> familiar with.
>>
>> Lee
>
> Can you tell me how it reacts for you? I mean, at what point in your
> repetitive dive does it start to limit you? 16 dives is a lot in 2.5 days so
> I'm wondering if less diving per day would still cause problems. I'm doing a
> love aboard where I'll be diving 5 days-at about 3 dives a day and one or
> two days will also have an additional night dive. Nitrox dives. So I'm
> wondering at what point the Suunto RGBM starts to limit you.
>

For normal Live aboard diving it will not limit you at all.

I used to guide liveaboard in the red sea, 4 guided dives a day, me
always deeper and often longer than the rest. Often i had to dive down
and tie on the boat before we all did go diving.

Used a Suunto Vytec, without going to deco. Only place i normaly did go
deco was Thistlegorm, because to tie boat on wreck i had to go down
twice to about 20 meter to tie on, then take the guests down on a dive,
then break for 2-3 hours, then down again, when the guest did go up rope
and do safety stop i stay down on 20 meters to untie. When the guest
left rope, i did untie that rope, then swim to other rope, untie that,
and then do deco, sometimes in the middle of nowhere (if i were lucky i
had company from a few dolphins).

My experience as a dive guide/instructor is that the Suunto algorithm
does not limit you for normal recreational diving, not even when doing 4
dives a day on a live aboard.

Of course if you make deco diving you will end up in deco, which you
have calculated before the dive, but the suunto's are also able to
handle this.

--
Best regards
C.T.O. Søren Reinke
www.Xray-Mag.com Your free online dive magazine
Download it in PDF, just like a real magazine

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:DLvif.23418$i7.371@bignews2.bellsouth.net...

> In addition to being more conservative relative to nitrogen, the computer
> calculates the MOD for the entered oxygen percentage at one point above
> what is entered. If you enter 32%, it calculates based on 33%, if you
> enter 36%, it calculates based on 34%. > Lee

The above was snipped for ease of reading---

Lee, did you mean to say if you enter 36% it calculates 37%?
So can you compensate by setting it to 31% when using 32%? Is this
calculation a reliable thing? Is there somewhere I can read about the
calculation it uses or is that part of the Suunto algorithm "secret"? I
mean, if it is written into the computer's code then you can adjust to beat
it.

I figure out my MOD and deco info by myself so it's not like I would be
relying on the computer to do it for me. I would know if something unsafe or
weird was displayed.

Thoughts?

Irene

Thanks, that makes me feel better


"Søren Reinke" <soren@REMOVE.reinke.dk>
For normal Live aboard diving it will not limit you at all.

I used to guide liveaboard in the red sea, 4 guided dives a day, me
always deeper and often longer than the rest. Often i had to dive down
and tie on the boat before we all did go diving.

Used a Suunto Vytec, without going to deco. Only place i normaly did go
deco was Thistlegorm, because to tie boat on wreck i had to go down
twice to about 20 meter to tie on, then take the guests down on a dive,
then break for 2-3 hours, then down again, when the guest did go up rope
and do safety stop i stay down on 20 meters to untie. When the guest
left rope, i did untie that rope, then swim to other rope, untie that,
and then do deco, sometimes in the middle of nowhere (if i were lucky i
had company from a few dolphins).

My experience as a dive guide/instructor is that the Suunto algorithm
does not limit you for normal recreational diving, not even when doing 4
dives a day on a live aboard.

Of course if you make deco diving you will end up in deco, which you
have calculated before the dive, but the suunto's are also able to
handle this.

--
Best regards
C.T.O. Søren Reinke
www.Xray-Mag.com Your free online dive magazine
Download it in PDF, just like a real magazine

"Irene" <spamfilter@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11oq8itn4dc3ed1@corp.supernews.com...
> "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:DLvif.23418$i7.371@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>
>> In addition to being more conservative relative to nitrogen, the
>> computer calculates the MOD for the entered oxygen percentage at one
>> point above what is entered. If you enter 32%, it calculates based on
>> 33%, if you enter 36%, it calculates based on 34%. > Lee
>
> The above was snipped for ease of reading---
>
> Lee, did you mean to say if you enter 36% it calculates 37%?
> So can you compensate by setting it to 31% when using 32%? Is this
> calculation a reliable thing? Is there somewhere I can read about the
> calculation it uses or is that part of the Suunto algorithm "secret"? I
> mean, if it is written into the computer's code then you can adjust to
> beat it.

Yes, I meant to say that. While you can fool the MOD calculation by using a
lower O2 percentage, doing so introduces potentially problematic nitrogen
calculation problems. Remember, more O2 means less nitrogen and visa versa.
For most divers, the N2 calculations are more important than those for O2.
A nitrox computer, however, is supposed to do both correctly.

> I figure out my MOD and deco info by myself so it's not like I would be
> relying on the computer to do it for me. I would know if something unsafe
> or weird was displayed.

If you have one of the computers in hand, it's pretty easy to do. Calculate
the mod for each PPO2 yourself and take the list to a dive shop. Enter each
mix into the computer and check the results against your list.

Calculating your MOD for yourself is always a good idea, but it's not the
point. The computer uses its calculated number to determine how deep you
should go. It starts by being conservative, compounds that by calculating a
mod that is shallower than it really is and compounds the issue again by
penalizing you significantly for reaching a PPO2 of 1.4 or more.

Lee

> For normal Live aboard diving it will not limit you at all.

Everybody else disagrees with you.

> I used to guide liveaboard in the red sea, 4 guided dives a day, me
> always deeper and often longer than the rest. Often i had to dive down
> and tie on the boat before we all did go diving.
>
> Used a Suunto Vytec, without going to deco.

I believe one of the initial posts in this topic indicated that the Vytec
uses a different algorighm. The problem has been reported with Vipers,
Mosquitos and Stingers. Perhaps the reason you were not limited is because
you weren't using the algorithm we're talking about. If you want to know,
go to your local dive shop and punch the various O2 percentages you might
use, from 21% to whatever, into a Bytec and a Viper and see what you get for
a MOD from each. Hand calculate it for each O2 percentage and you'll know
for sure.

> Only place i normaly did go deco was Thistlegorm, because to tie boat on
> wreck i had to go down
> twice to about 20 meter to tie on, then take the guests down on a dive,
> then break for 2-3 hours, then down again, when the guest did go up rope
> and do safety stop i stay down on 20 meters to untie. When the guest
> left rope, i did untie that rope, then swim to other rope, untie that,
> and then do deco, sometimes in the middle of nowhere (if i were lucky i
> had company from a few dolphins).

The question is not whether the Suunto line will handle situations when it
calculates you have exceeded your no deco limit but, rather, whether you
really have exceeded your limit when it says you have.

> My experience as a dive guide/instructor is that the Suunto algorithm
> does not limit you for normal recreational diving, not even when doing 4
> dives a day on a live aboard.

Unless you have compared results from your computer to other computers, you
don't know this and, as I've mentioned, the computer you are using may not
share the algorithm with the ones we're talking about here.

Lee

Lee Bell wrote:
>> For normal Live aboard diving it will not limit you at all.
>
> Everybody else disagrees with you.
>
>> I used to guide liveaboard in the red sea, 4 guided dives a day, me
>> always deeper and often longer than the rest. Often i had to dive down
>> and tie on the boat before we all did go diving.
>>
>> Used a Suunto Vytec, without going to deco.
>
> I believe one of the initial posts in this topic indicated that the Vytec
> uses a different algorighm. The problem has been reported with Vipers,

Okay i missed that one.

But the first liveaboard i was on as a guest, i 'only' had a vyper,
still no problems with getting into deco or anything.

I always dive deepest in the morning, and shallower every dive
thereafter, like:
1. max 30 meter
2. max 25 meter
3. max 18 meter
4. max 12 meter

> Mosquitos and Stingers. Perhaps the reason you were not limited is because
> you weren't using the algorithm we're talking about. If you want to know,
> go to your local dive shop and punch the various O2 percentages you might
> use, from 21% to whatever, into a Bytec and a Viper and see what you get for
> a MOD from each. Hand calculate it for each O2 percentage and you'll know
> for sure.

When i visit my friend ill try to do that check, good idea,

>
> The question is not whether the Suunto line will handle situations whenit
> calculates you have exceeded your no deco limit but, rather, whether you
> really have exceeded your limit when it says you have.

I would absolutely prefer a computer that tells me i am at deco now,
before i actually am, compared to a computer that tells me to late.

Remember deco algorithms are not 100% absolutly always correct, there
are so many factor you can never make on.
Also the amount of nitrogen in your system is not measured, the just
estimate it, things like 'amount of body fat, mental and physical
fitness, dehydration, to much/to little food, and a lot of other factors
are not known by the computer.

So a conservative profile i would say is better than one that is not.

>
>> My experience as a dive guide/instructor is that the Suunto algorithm
>> does not limit you for normal recreational diving, not even when doing4
>> dives a day on a live aboard.
>
> Unless you have compared results from your computer to other computers,you
> don't know this and, as I've mentioned, the computer you are using may not
> share the algorithm with the ones we're talking about here.

My colleges, did use vytec, vyper, vr3, aladin, mares, and i would guess
every other computer on the market (there are MANY dive
guides/instructors in Sharm el Sheikh.) and none of them ever did talk
about having to little dive time when guiding or teaching.

Some are of course less conservative, others are more. Which is best for
you only you know.

But for a 4 dives a day liveaboard, the Suunto ones, are not limiting
you, if you do recreational diving. Of course if you plan to go under
the arches in Thomas Canyon (first one at around 45 meters) you will end
up in deco anyway (except if you are nuts (trust me it is a LOVELY
dive in that canyon)

My motto when diving is and has always been 'better safe than sorry'

--
Best regards
C.T.O. Søren Reinke
www.Xray-Mag.com Your free on line dive magazine
Download it in PDF, just like a real magazine

Lee Bell wrote:
>
> Calculating your MOD for yourself is always a good idea, but it's not the
> point. The computer uses its calculated number to determine how deep you

Your should always calculate MOD by hand if you dive with Nitrox, your
Nitrox instructor has hopefully told you that :)

--
Best regards
C.T.O. Søren Reinke
www.Xray-Mag.com Your free online dive magazine
Download it in PDF, just like a real magazine

"Søren Reinke" wrote

> The question is not whether the Suunto line will handle situations when it
> calculates you have exceeded your no deco limit but, rather, whether you
> really have exceeded your limit when it says you have.

I would absolutely prefer a computer that tells me i am at deco now,
before i actually am, compared to a computer that tells me to late.

How about one that tells you accurately?

So a conservative profile i would say is better than one that is not.

Your choice. I'll see you when I return to the surface, long after you've
ascended.

My colleges, did use vytec, vyper, vr3, aladin, mares, and i would guess
every other computer on the market (there are MANY dive
guides/instructors in Sharm el Sheikh.) and none of them ever did talk
about having to little dive time when guiding or teaching.

Could that possibly be because they were ascending with whoever needed to
ascend first?

But for a 4 dives a day liveaboard, the Suunto ones, are not limiting
you, if you do recreational diving. Of course if you plan to go under
the arches in Thomas Canyon (first one at around 45 meters) you will end
up in deco anyway (except if you are nuts (trust me it is a LOVELY
dive in that canyon)

My motto when diving is and has always been 'better safe than sorry'

You're safest if you don't dive at all.

Lee

"Søren Reinke" <soren@REMOVE.reinke.dk> wrote in message
news:438e160a$0$78288$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity. dk...
Lee Bell wrote:
>
> Calculating your MOD for yourself is always a good idea, but it's not the
> point. The computer uses its calculated number to determine how deep you

Your should always calculate MOD by hand if you dive with Nitrox, your
Nitrox instructor has hopefully told you that :)

Why when you've got a computer you have verified can do it for you?

Lee

First of all, please switch to use a newsreader program that does
indentation ! It is VERY annoying to read your posting, when it is not
easy to se what you wrote and what someone else wrote.

Lee Bell wrote:
> "Søren Reinke" wrote
>
>> The question is not whether the Suunto line will handle situations when it
>> calculates you have exceeded your no deco limit but, rather, whether you
>> really have exceeded your limit when it says you have.
>
> I would absolutely prefer a computer that tells me i am at deco now,
> before i actually am, compared to a computer that tells me to late.
>
> How about one that tells you accurately?

I would suggest you start to study deco theory, there is not algorithm
that is accurate ! ALL OF THEM are approximations.

As i wrote to you earlier there are way to many factors not in the
equation for it to be accurate !

go to www.google.com and search for deco algorithms.

>
> So a conservative profile i would say is better than one that is not.
>
> Your choice. I'll see you when I return to the surface, long after you've
> ascended.

'long after' hehehe, no way.

>
> My colleges, did use vytec, vyper, vr3, aladin, mares, and i would guess
> every other computer on the market (there are MANY dive
> guides/instructors in Sharm el Sheikh.) and none of them ever did talk
> about having to little dive time when guiding or teaching.
>
> Could that possibly be because they were ascending with whoever needed to
> ascend first?

On the first few dives with new guests yes, after that i was normally
always last. Often very close to deco, still no problems.

>
> But for a 4 dives a day liveaboard, the Suunto ones, are not limiting
> you, if you do recreational diving. Of course if you plan to go under
> the arches in Thomas Canyon (first one at around 45 meters) you will end
> up in deco anyway (except if you are nuts (trust me it is a LOVELY
> dive in that canyon)
>
> My motto when diving is and has always been 'better safe than sorry'
>
> You're safest if you don't dive at all.

Please read what i write 'when diving' that does not mean i wont dive.

It sounds to me as you cant/wont accept that other dives didn't have any
problems with using a non vytec suunto computer on a liveaboard, and
didnt get their dives shortened by using them.

If you don't like suunto for some reason, no problem, but remember that
does not mean everybody else don't like them as well

>
> Lee
>
>


--
Best regards
C.T.O. Søren Reinke
www.Xray-Mag.com Your free online dive magazine
Download it in PDF, just like a real magazine