Diving Archeologists wrongfully detained by indonesian police

>> It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>> simply
>> failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

> That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
> government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
> have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
> reputation.

Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
there's mounting evidence my government was too.

Lee

"Froggy" wrote

> This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

At this point, I'd say it's more of a certainty.

> However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
> evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
> getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
> revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
> their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
> managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
> cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
> Indonesia...).
>
> The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
> of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
> tried.

Agreed. I don't blame the divers. They did what they could. It seems,
however, that they missed something that has now risen up to bite them.

> Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
> bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
> this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
> your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
> more likely to be bullied.

Moral issues are not under discussion. Practical ones are. It appears that
the competitors, who are probably out there picking loot off the wreck as we
type had a better grasp of the practicalities than those currently
incarcerated.

Lee

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:U4wWf.153$68.135@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>> It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>> simply
>>> failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
>> That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
>> government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
>> have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
>> reputation.
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil.
> Sadly, there's mounting evidence my government was too.

Got any info on that?


>
> Lee
>
>

"Popeye" wrote

>> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
>> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil.
>> Sadly, there's mounting evidence my government was too.
>
> Got any info on that?

All I need is easily visible at the gas pump. Then there's Bush's comments
regarding America's addiction to gas. Not bad coming from a family that
made millions on that addiction. Then there's the tax breaks being given to
oil companies who claim that they have to raise prices, but who are enjoying
the highest profits in their history.

Not enough? OK, how about the lack of reaction to rapidly increasing gas
costs and the claims that it was a supply issue related to the middle east
when we have, right here in our own country, scores of untapped wells we
simply chose not to use.

Still not enough? Try this. In the Big Cypress Preserve, there's a dirt
road called Eleven Mile Road. It used to be open for people to see what the
Big Cypress looks like without spending the money to buy ATVs, Airboats or
Swamp Buggies. There's a big sign at the locked gate telling how it's been
closed do to safety and environmental reasons. The presence of endangered
Florida Panthers is specifically mentioned. According to the sign, it will
soon be returned to its natural state. It really is, by the way, part of
the range of Florida panthers. We saw their tracks near the road as
recently as last Saturday.

What the sign doesn't say is that there is one group that is allowed to use
that road, without supervision and without coming even close to the 15 mph
speed limit posted from one end of it to the other. Remember those
panthers? The one group the oil company operating 6 oil well pads at the
north end of that road. Sound like the use of federal money and federal
lands for the direct benefit of the oil industry to you? It damned sure
does to me.

Sound like something done to protect the environment? Sound like the road
really will be returned to its natural state soon? Oil pads in the
Everglades? Speeding trucks on a trucked in gravel road 4 feet above the
surrounding area? Doesn't sound real eco friendly to me.

I happen to have first hand knowledge of this because I spent most of the
day on Saturday looking for, and finding, a back way into that road. I
wanted to see what was there and, as it happens, we're having a bit of a
drought right now. The area, which is open to disbursed use (once you're
more than a mile from the highway) is normally too wet for ATV access. It's
still not easy to cross the 3 or 4 miles from the Dade Collier Transition
and Training Airport (proposed jetport that failed due to real environmental
issues), but it's possible. I know about the trucks using the road at
excessive speeds because I saw them with my own two eyes and damned near met
one of them head on. I know about the oil pads because I talked to the
driver of that truck and because I found them on Google Earth. If I get a
chance to get back before we get enough rain to make the area hard to
access, I'll find a back, legal way in and get my pictures. On Saturday,
however, I figured that, once I'd talked to the oil man, who had a radio in
his truck, on the road, probably should leave before the Park Service came
to deal with us environmentally unfriendly trespassers on their "closed for
environmental reasons" oil road.

Neither the road, nor the oil pads, are on the Big Cypress maps. They are,
however, easily visible on Google earth. If you're interested in seeing
them, open Google Earth (you may have to load it, but it's free and worth
the time) and go to N 25 59 14.10/W 80 55 05.35 with the view set to about
18000 feet (get to the coordinates first) to see the end of the roads and
the oil pads. N 25 55 36.40/ W 80 56 22.21 with the view set to about 15
miles to see the whole road.

Lee

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:nOSWf.2818$L6.2479@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> "Popeye" wrote
>
>>> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
>>> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil.
>>> Sadly, there's mounting evidence my government was too.
>>
>> Got any info on that?

<popeye squints>


Well, -alrighty- then...


I thought you meant some UN Oil For Food complicity or something.

--

"The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storms terrible,
but they have
never found these dangers sufficient reason for remaining ashore." -
Vincent van Gogh

www.finalprotectivefire.com

> All I need is easily visible at the gas pump. Then there's Bush's
> comments regarding America's addiction to gas. Not bad coming from a
> family that made millions on that addiction. Then there's the tax breaks
> being given to oil companies who claim that they have to raise prices, but
> who are enjoying the highest profits in their history.
>
> Not enough? OK, how about the lack of reaction to rapidly increasing gas
> costs and the claims that it was a supply issue related to the middle east
> when we have, right here in our own country, scores of untapped wells we
> simply chose not to use.
>
> Still not enough? Try this. In the Big Cypress Preserve, there's a dirt
> road called Eleven Mile Road. It used to be open for people to see what
> the Big Cypress looks like without spending the money to buy ATVs,
> Airboats or Swamp Buggies. There's a big sign at the locked gate telling
> how it's been closed do to safety and environmental reasons. The presence
> of endangered Florida Panthers is specifically mentioned. According to
> the sign, it will soon be returned to its natural state. It really is, by
> the way, part of the range of Florida panthers. We saw their tracks near
> the road as recently as last Saturday.
>
> What the sign doesn't say is that there is one group that is allowed to
> use that road, without supervision and without coming even close to the 15
> mph speed limit posted from one end of it to the other. Remember those
> panthers? The one group the oil company operating 6 oil well pads at the
> north end of that road. Sound like the use of federal money and federal
> lands for the direct benefit of the oil industry to you? It damned sure
> does to me.
>
> Sound like something done to protect the environment? Sound like the road
> really will be returned to its natural state soon? Oil pads in the
> Everglades? Speeding trucks on a trucked in gravel road 4 feet above the
> surrounding area? Doesn't sound real eco friendly to me.
>
> I happen to have first hand knowledge of this because I spent most of the
> day on Saturday looking for, and finding, a back way into that road. I
> wanted to see what was there and, as it happens, we're having a bit of a
> drought right now. The area, which is open to disbursed use (once you're
> more than a mile from the highway) is normally too wet for ATV access.
> It's still not easy to cross the 3 or 4 miles from the Dade Collier
> Transition and Training Airport (proposed jetport that failed due to real
> environmental issues), but it's possible. I know about the trucks using
> the road at excessive speeds because I saw them with my own two eyes and
> damned near met one of them head on. I know about the oil pads because I
> talked to the driver of that truck and because I found them on Google
> Earth. If I get a chance to get back before we get enough rain to make
> the area hard to access, I'll find a back, legal way in and get my
> pictures. On Saturday, however, I figured that, once I'd talked to the
> oil man, who had a radio in his truck, on the road, probably should leave
> before the Park Service came to deal with us environmentally unfriendly
> trespassers on their "closed for environmental reasons" oil road.
>
> Neither the road, nor the oil pads, are on the Big Cypress maps. They
> are, however, easily visible on Google earth. If you're interested in
> seeing them, open Google Earth (you may have to load it, but it's free and
> worth the time) and go to N 25 59 14.10/W 80 55 05.35 with the view set to
> about 18000 feet (get to the coordinates first) to see the end of the
> roads and the oil pads. N 25 55 36.40/ W 80 56 22.21 with the view set to
> about 15 miles to see the whole road.
>
> Lee
>

"Popeye" wrote

>>>> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
>>>> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil.
>>>> Sadly, there's mounting evidence my government was too.
>>>
>>> Got any info on that?
>
> <popeye squints>
>
>
> Well, -alrighty- then...

> I thought you meant some UN Oil For Food complicity or something.

I did relative to the French.

Come to think of it, I'm not so sure we didn't do something similar
ourselves. Remember when they flew Osama's family out of the US right after
the planes hit the WTC? Ever wonder what was up with that?

Lee

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:M6VWf.2730$L7.1102@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> "Popeye" wrote
>
>>>>> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
>>>>> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil.
>>>>> Sadly, there's mounting evidence my government was too.
>>>>
>>>> Got any info on that?
>>
>> <popeye squints>
>>
>>
>> Well, -alrighty- then...
>
>> I thought you meant some UN Oil For Food complicity or something.
>
> I did relative to the French.
>
> Come to think of it, I'm not so sure we didn't do something similar
> ourselves. Remember when they flew Osama's family out of the US right
> after the planes hit the WTC? Ever wonder what was up with that?


I never read or thought much about it, because charliekeys is the only
person I ever heard it from.

But if there was anything surreptitious there,

a) They'd have been gone long before hand, and,

b) You'd never have heard about it.



--

"The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storms
terrible, but they have never found these dangers sufficient
reason for remaining ashore." - Vincent van Gogh

www.finalprotectivefire.com

It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens
and numerous other Saudis. At least six private jets and nearly two dozen
commercial planes carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S.
after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin
Laden family, were allowed to leave the country.

(CBS) Two dozen members of Osama bin Laden's family were urgently evacuated
from the United States in the first days following the terrorist attacks on
New York and Washington, according to the Saudi ambassador to Washington.

One of bin Laden's brothers frantically called the Saudi Arabian Embassy in
Washington looking for protection, Prince Bandar bin Sultan told The New
York Times. The brother was sent to a room in the Watergate Hotel and was
told not to open the door.

Most of bin Laden's relatives were attending high school and college. The
young members of the bin Laden family were driven or flown under FBI
supervision to a secret place in Texas and then to Washington, The Times
reported Sunday.

Many were terrified, fearing they would be lynched after hearing reports of
violence against Muslims and Arab-Americans.

They left the country on a private charter plane when airports reopened
three days after the attacks.

King Fahd, the ailing Saudi ruler, sent an urgent message to his embassy in
Washington pointing out that there were "bin Laden children all over
America" and ordered, "Take measures to protect the innocents," the
ambassador said.

My apologies for cross posting this stuff the UKRS and other lists. The
discussion has changed and I failed to note my messages were going to a
variety of people no longer likely to be interested.

I'll try to do better.

Lee