Diving Archeologists wrongfully detained by indonesian police

>> It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>> simply
>> failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

> That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
> government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
> have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
> reputation.

Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
there's mounting evidence my government was too.

Lee

Lee Bell wrote:
> >> It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
> >> simply
> >> failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
> > That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
> > government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
> > have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
> > reputation.
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.

This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
Indonesia...).

The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
tried.

Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
more likely to be bullied.

Cheers,

Froggy

Lee Bell wrote:
> >> It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
> >> simply
> >> failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
> > That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
> > government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
> > have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
> > reputation.
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.

This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
Indonesia...).

The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
tried.

Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
more likely to be bullied.

Cheers,

Froggy

Lee Bell wrote:
> >> It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
> >> simply
> >> failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
> > That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
> > government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
> > have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
> > reputation.
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.

This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
Indonesia...).

The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
tried.

Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
more likely to be bullied.

Cheers,

Froggy

Lee Bell wrote:
> >> It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
> >> simply
> >> failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
> > That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
> > government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
> > have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
> > reputation.
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.

This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
Indonesia...).

The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
tried.

Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
more likely to be bullied.

Cheers,

Froggy

Lee Bell wrote:
> >> It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
> >> simply
> >> failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
> > That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
> > government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
> > have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
> > reputation.
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.

This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
Indonesia...).

The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
tried.

Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
more likely to be bullied.

Cheers,

Froggy

Lee Bell wrote:
> >> It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
> >> simply
> >> failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
> > That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
> > government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
> > have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
> > reputation.
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.

This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
Indonesia...).

The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
tried.

Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
more likely to be bullied.

Cheers,

Froggy

Lee Bell wrote:
> >> It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
> >> simply
> >> failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
> > That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
> > government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
> > have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
> > reputation.
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.

This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
Indonesia...).

The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
tried.

Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
more likely to be bullied.

Cheers,

Froggy

"Froggy" wrote

> This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

At this point, I'd say it's more of a certainty.

> However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
> evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
> getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
> revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
> their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
> managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
> cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
> Indonesia...).
>
> The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
> of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
> tried.

Agreed. I don't blame the divers. They did what they could. It seems,
however, that they missed something that has now risen up to bite them.

> Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
> bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
> this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
> your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
> more likely to be bullied.

Moral issues are not under discussion. Practical ones are. It appears that
the competitors, who are probably out there picking loot off the wreck as we
type had a better grasp of the practicalities than those currently
incarcerated.

Lee

"Froggy" wrote

> This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

At this point, I'd say it's more of a certainty.

> However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
> evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
> getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
> revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
> their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
> managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
> cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
> Indonesia...).
>
> The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
> of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
> tried.

Agreed. I don't blame the divers. They did what they could. It seems,
however, that they missed something that has now risen up to bite them.

> Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
> bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
> this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
> your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
> more likely to be bullied.

Moral issues are not under discussion. Practical ones are. It appears that
the competitors, who are probably out there picking loot off the wreck as we
type had a better grasp of the practicalities than those currently
incarcerated.

Lee