Diving Archeologists wrongfully detained by indonesian police

"Froggy" wrote

> This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

At this point, I'd say it's more of a certainty.

> However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
> evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
> getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
> revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
> their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
> managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
> cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
> Indonesia...).
>
> The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
> of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
> tried.

Agreed. I don't blame the divers. They did what they could. It seems,
however, that they missed something that has now risen up to bite them.

> Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
> bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
> this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
> your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
> more likely to be bullied.

Moral issues are not under discussion. Practical ones are. It appears that
the competitors, who are probably out there picking loot off the wreck as we
type had a better grasp of the practicalities than those currently
incarcerated.

Lee

"Froggy" wrote

> This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

At this point, I'd say it's more of a certainty.

> However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
> evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
> getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
> revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
> their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
> managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
> cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
> Indonesia...).
>
> The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
> of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
> tried.

Agreed. I don't blame the divers. They did what they could. It seems,
however, that they missed something that has now risen up to bite them.

> Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
> bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
> this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
> your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
> more likely to be bullied.

Moral issues are not under discussion. Practical ones are. It appears that
the competitors, who are probably out there picking loot off the wreck as we
type had a better grasp of the practicalities than those currently
incarcerated.

Lee

"Froggy" wrote

> This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

At this point, I'd say it's more of a certainty.

> However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
> evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
> getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
> revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
> their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
> managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
> cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
> Indonesia...).
>
> The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
> of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
> tried.

Agreed. I don't blame the divers. They did what they could. It seems,
however, that they missed something that has now risen up to bite them.

> Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
> bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
> this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
> your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
> more likely to be bullied.

Moral issues are not under discussion. Practical ones are. It appears that
the competitors, who are probably out there picking loot off the wreck as we
type had a better grasp of the practicalities than those currently
incarcerated.

Lee

"Froggy" wrote

> This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

At this point, I'd say it's more of a certainty.

> However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
> evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
> getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
> revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
> their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
> managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
> cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
> Indonesia...).
>
> The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
> of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
> tried.

Agreed. I don't blame the divers. They did what they could. It seems,
however, that they missed something that has now risen up to bite them.

> Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
> bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
> this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
> your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
> more likely to be bullied.

Moral issues are not under discussion. Practical ones are. It appears that
the competitors, who are probably out there picking loot off the wreck as we
type had a better grasp of the practicalities than those currently
incarcerated.

Lee

"Froggy" wrote

> This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

At this point, I'd say it's more of a certainty.

> However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
> evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
> getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
> revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
> their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
> managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
> cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
> Indonesia...).
>
> The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
> of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
> tried.

Agreed. I don't blame the divers. They did what they could. It seems,
however, that they missed something that has now risen up to bite them.

> Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
> bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
> this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
> your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
> more likely to be bullied.

Moral issues are not under discussion. Practical ones are. It appears that
the competitors, who are probably out there picking loot off the wreck as we
type had a better grasp of the practicalities than those currently
incarcerated.

Lee

X-No-Archive: Yes

Lee Bell kirjoitti:
>>>It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>>simply
>>>failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
>
>>That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
>>government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
>>have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
>>reputation.
>
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.
>
> Lee
>
>

Sadly, though,

In places like Indonesia (and Russia and China and places in Africa
and...) you do not bribe the government. You bribe the person. It does
not matter if you have all the paperwork in order through the official
channels. If the person handling you case does not get their cut, you're
done. Indonesians especially have a fantastic way of letting you know
that "it does not matter if you already paid THEM, now you need to to
pay ME".

Mind you, bribing is illegal in Indonesia too and the government has
taken several high-level politicians and businessmen to courts for
taking bribes. However, the risk to get caught is negligible on the
individual level and the rewards are huge compared to the risk. So
everyone more or less expects a cut of whatever goes on - starting from
the guys in immigration at the airport (Try SG$5 inside your passport
and experience the smoothest immigration ever - not that I would know
anything about this, though, just heard some guys in the bar talk about
it. And they do not see it as a bribe - more like a tip.

Now, as some of you may know, I do business in some of these places.
Therefore I'll state for the record that I strongly disapprove bribing
in all shapes and forms. However, it pays to understand the local ways
and the fact that western notions of justice have nothing to do with
them. It also helps to have a local partner to work with.

timo

X-No-Archive: Yes

Lee Bell kirjoitti:
>>>It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>>simply
>>>failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
>
>>That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
>>government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
>>have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
>>reputation.
>
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.
>
> Lee
>
>

Sadly, though,

In places like Indonesia (and Russia and China and places in Africa
and...) you do not bribe the government. You bribe the person. It does
not matter if you have all the paperwork in order through the official
channels. If the person handling you case does not get their cut, you're
done. Indonesians especially have a fantastic way of letting you know
that "it does not matter if you already paid THEM, now you need to to
pay ME".

Mind you, bribing is illegal in Indonesia too and the government has
taken several high-level politicians and businessmen to courts for
taking bribes. However, the risk to get caught is negligible on the
individual level and the rewards are huge compared to the risk. So
everyone more or less expects a cut of whatever goes on - starting from
the guys in immigration at the airport (Try SG$5 inside your passport
and experience the smoothest immigration ever - not that I would know
anything about this, though, just heard some guys in the bar talk about
it. And they do not see it as a bribe - more like a tip.

Now, as some of you may know, I do business in some of these places.
Therefore I'll state for the record that I strongly disapprove bribing
in all shapes and forms. However, it pays to understand the local ways
and the fact that western notions of justice have nothing to do with
them. It also helps to have a local partner to work with.

timo

X-No-Archive: Yes

Lee Bell kirjoitti:
>>>It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>>simply
>>>failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
>
>>That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
>>government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
>>have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
>>reputation.
>
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.
>
> Lee
>
>

Sadly, though,

In places like Indonesia (and Russia and China and places in Africa
and...) you do not bribe the government. You bribe the person. It does
not matter if you have all the paperwork in order through the official
channels. If the person handling you case does not get their cut, you're
done. Indonesians especially have a fantastic way of letting you know
that "it does not matter if you already paid THEM, now you need to to
pay ME".

Mind you, bribing is illegal in Indonesia too and the government has
taken several high-level politicians and businessmen to courts for
taking bribes. However, the risk to get caught is negligible on the
individual level and the rewards are huge compared to the risk. So
everyone more or less expects a cut of whatever goes on - starting from
the guys in immigration at the airport (Try SG$5 inside your passport
and experience the smoothest immigration ever - not that I would know
anything about this, though, just heard some guys in the bar talk about
it. And they do not see it as a bribe - more like a tip.

Now, as some of you may know, I do business in some of these places.
Therefore I'll state for the record that I strongly disapprove bribing
in all shapes and forms. However, it pays to understand the local ways
and the fact that western notions of justice have nothing to do with
them. It also helps to have a local partner to work with.

timo

X-No-Archive: Yes

Lee Bell kirjoitti:
>>>It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>>simply
>>>failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
>
>>That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
>>government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
>>have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
>>reputation.
>
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.
>
> Lee
>
>

Sadly, though,

In places like Indonesia (and Russia and China and places in Africa
and...) you do not bribe the government. You bribe the person. It does
not matter if you have all the paperwork in order through the official
channels. If the person handling you case does not get their cut, you're
done. Indonesians especially have a fantastic way of letting you know
that "it does not matter if you already paid THEM, now you need to to
pay ME".

Mind you, bribing is illegal in Indonesia too and the government has
taken several high-level politicians and businessmen to courts for
taking bribes. However, the risk to get caught is negligible on the
individual level and the rewards are huge compared to the risk. So
everyone more or less expects a cut of whatever goes on - starting from
the guys in immigration at the airport (Try SG$5 inside your passport
and experience the smoothest immigration ever - not that I would know
anything about this, though, just heard some guys in the bar talk about
it. And they do not see it as a bribe - more like a tip.

Now, as some of you may know, I do business in some of these places.
Therefore I'll state for the record that I strongly disapprove bribing
in all shapes and forms. However, it pays to understand the local ways
and the fact that western notions of justice have nothing to do with
them. It also helps to have a local partner to work with.

timo

X-No-Archive: Yes

Lee Bell kirjoitti:
>>>It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>>simply
>>>failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
>
>>That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
>>government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
>>have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
>>reputation.
>
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.
>
> Lee
>
>

Sadly, though,

In places like Indonesia (and Russia and China and places in Africa
and...) you do not bribe the government. You bribe the person. It does
not matter if you have all the paperwork in order through the official
channels. If the person handling you case does not get their cut, you're
done. Indonesians especially have a fantastic way of letting you know
that "it does not matter if you already paid THEM, now you need to to
pay ME".

Mind you, bribing is illegal in Indonesia too and the government has
taken several high-level politicians and businessmen to courts for
taking bribes. However, the risk to get caught is negligible on the
individual level and the rewards are huge compared to the risk. So
everyone more or less expects a cut of whatever goes on - starting from
the guys in immigration at the airport (Try SG$5 inside your passport
and experience the smoothest immigration ever - not that I would know
anything about this, though, just heard some guys in the bar talk about
it. And they do not see it as a bribe - more like a tip.

Now, as some of you may know, I do business in some of these places.
Therefore I'll state for the record that I strongly disapprove bribing
in all shapes and forms. However, it pays to understand the local ways
and the fact that western notions of justice have nothing to do with
them. It also helps to have a local partner to work with.

timo