Diving Archeologists wrongfully detained by indonesian police

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:FjfXf.1078$Q8.780@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> "Greg Mossman" wrote
>
>> You might want to watch Fahrenheit 9/11 someday. Moore goes into much
>> further detail about the long time cooperation and friendship between the
>> Bush and Bin Laden families pre- and post-9/11.
>
> I would, but Michael is such a lying sack of shit that I just can't bring
> myself to do so. It takes to long to separate the truth from his
> bullshit.

Either way, it's a fun movie. No one would watch his movies if they were
boring bullshit. He's very entertaining.

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:FjfXf.1078$Q8.780@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> "Greg Mossman" wrote
>
>> You might want to watch Fahrenheit 9/11 someday. Moore goes into much
>> further detail about the long time cooperation and friendship between the
>> Bush and Bin Laden families pre- and post-9/11.
>
> I would, but Michael is such a lying sack of shit that I just can't bring
> myself to do so. It takes to long to separate the truth from his
> bullshit.

Either way, it's a fun movie. No one would watch his movies if they were
boring bullshit. He's very entertaining.

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:FjfXf.1078$Q8.780@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> "Greg Mossman" wrote
>
>> You might want to watch Fahrenheit 9/11 someday. Moore goes into much
>> further detail about the long time cooperation and friendship between the
>> Bush and Bin Laden families pre- and post-9/11.
>
> I would, but Michael is such a lying sack of shit that I just can't bring
> myself to do so. It takes to long to separate the truth from his
> bullshit.

Either way, it's a fun movie. No one would watch his movies if they were
boring bullshit. He's very entertaining.

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:FjfXf.1078$Q8.780@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> "Greg Mossman" wrote
>
>> You might want to watch Fahrenheit 9/11 someday. Moore goes into much
>> further detail about the long time cooperation and friendship between the
>> Bush and Bin Laden families pre- and post-9/11.
>
> I would, but Michael is such a lying sack of shit that I just can't bring
> myself to do so. It takes to long to separate the truth from his
> bullshit.

Either way, it's a fun movie. No one would watch his movies if they were
boring bullshit. He's very entertaining.

In article <5YwWf.263$h97.82@read3.inet.fi>,
Timo Ahomäki <timppa.NOSPAM@ahomaki.DOT.net> wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>Lee Bell kirjoitti:
>>>>It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>>>simply
>>>>failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

>Sadly, though,
>
>In places like Indonesia (and Russia and China and places in Africa
>and...) you do not bribe the government. You bribe the person. It does
>not matter if you have all the paperwork in order through the official
>channels. If the person handling you case does not get their cut, you're
>done. Indonesians especially have a fantastic way of letting you know
>that "it does not matter if you already paid THEM, now you need to to
>pay ME".

I find this a little different in Indonesia. The country is pretty
corrupt, but there are a lot of other things to consider. It is a poor
country with a lot of tribal associations. They generally loathe
rich westeners, but they make exceptions readily.

Because of this nature you must think of getting sponsors and
building alliances. If you do it the clean way you still have to
do the legwork. Have some politician sponsor the work. Hire some
of the locals as helpers. Being officially, gainfully employed will
make them, and possibly the entire tribe, positively geared towards
your enterprise.

Engange officialdom, but avoit the police and armed forces if you can.
A generally respected mayor on your side will do a lot more for you.
A handful of honest jobs to locals may do the right trick.

And, whenever someone are helpful, it is customary to give a small tip.

I don't consider this a bribe; the setting is a lot closer to
a New York cabbie helping you with your suitcases than getting an
Egyptian to clear your papers.

Also, you need to learn to haggle, indonesian style. (The haggling
is of an intensity that will make arabs blush.). Engage porters, they
make your life a lot easier. It is worth the RP 25-50k.

>Mind you, bribing is illegal in Indonesia too and the government has
>taken several high-level politicians and businessmen to courts for
>taking bribes. However, the risk to get caught is negligible on the
>individual level and the rewards are huge compared to the risk. So
>everyone more or less expects a cut of whatever goes on - starting from
>the guys in immigration at the airport (Try SG$5 inside your passport
>and experience the smoothest immigration ever - not that I would know
>anything about this, though, just heard some guys in the bar talk about
>it. And they do not see it as a bribe - more like a tip.

I find that speaking politely to the guards in indonesian works
even better. This show that you respect them; which is very important
in their society.

>Now, as some of you may know, I do business in some of these places.
>Therefore I'll state for the record that I strongly disapprove bribing
>in all shapes and forms. However, it pays to understand the local ways
>and the fact that western notions of justice have nothing to do with
>them. It also helps to have a local partner to work with.

Amen.

I have seen versions of resorts that do whatever they can to engage
the locals; and they become cemented into the local culture in a few
years; but the large foreign owned complex next door will remain alien
even if decades pass.

-- mrr

In article <5YwWf.263$h97.82@read3.inet.fi>,
Timo Ahomäki <timppa.NOSPAM@ahomaki.DOT.net> wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>Lee Bell kirjoitti:
>>>>It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>>>simply
>>>>failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

>Sadly, though,
>
>In places like Indonesia (and Russia and China and places in Africa
>and...) you do not bribe the government. You bribe the person. It does
>not matter if you have all the paperwork in order through the official
>channels. If the person handling you case does not get their cut, you're
>done. Indonesians especially have a fantastic way of letting you know
>that "it does not matter if you already paid THEM, now you need to to
>pay ME".

I find this a little different in Indonesia. The country is pretty
corrupt, but there are a lot of other things to consider. It is a poor
country with a lot of tribal associations. They generally loathe
rich westeners, but they make exceptions readily.

Because of this nature you must think of getting sponsors and
building alliances. If you do it the clean way you still have to
do the legwork. Have some politician sponsor the work. Hire some
of the locals as helpers. Being officially, gainfully employed will
make them, and possibly the entire tribe, positively geared towards
your enterprise.

Engange officialdom, but avoit the police and armed forces if you can.
A generally respected mayor on your side will do a lot more for you.
A handful of honest jobs to locals may do the right trick.

And, whenever someone are helpful, it is customary to give a small tip.

I don't consider this a bribe; the setting is a lot closer to
a New York cabbie helping you with your suitcases than getting an
Egyptian to clear your papers.

Also, you need to learn to haggle, indonesian style. (The haggling
is of an intensity that will make arabs blush.). Engage porters, they
make your life a lot easier. It is worth the RP 25-50k.

>Mind you, bribing is illegal in Indonesia too and the government has
>taken several high-level politicians and businessmen to courts for
>taking bribes. However, the risk to get caught is negligible on the
>individual level and the rewards are huge compared to the risk. So
>everyone more or less expects a cut of whatever goes on - starting from
>the guys in immigration at the airport (Try SG$5 inside your passport
>and experience the smoothest immigration ever - not that I would know
>anything about this, though, just heard some guys in the bar talk about
>it. And they do not see it as a bribe - more like a tip.

I find that speaking politely to the guards in indonesian works
even better. This show that you respect them; which is very important
in their society.

>Now, as some of you may know, I do business in some of these places.
>Therefore I'll state for the record that I strongly disapprove bribing
>in all shapes and forms. However, it pays to understand the local ways
>and the fact that western notions of justice have nothing to do with
>them. It also helps to have a local partner to work with.

Amen.

I have seen versions of resorts that do whatever they can to engage
the locals; and they become cemented into the local culture in a few
years; but the large foreign owned complex next door will remain alien
even if decades pass.

-- mrr

In article <5YwWf.263$h97.82@read3.inet.fi>,
Timo Ahomäki <timppa.NOSPAM@ahomaki.DOT.net> wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>Lee Bell kirjoitti:
>>>>It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>>>simply
>>>>failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

>Sadly, though,
>
>In places like Indonesia (and Russia and China and places in Africa
>and...) you do not bribe the government. You bribe the person. It does
>not matter if you have all the paperwork in order through the official
>channels. If the person handling you case does not get their cut, you're
>done. Indonesians especially have a fantastic way of letting you know
>that "it does not matter if you already paid THEM, now you need to to
>pay ME".

I find this a little different in Indonesia. The country is pretty
corrupt, but there are a lot of other things to consider. It is a poor
country with a lot of tribal associations. They generally loathe
rich westeners, but they make exceptions readily.

Because of this nature you must think of getting sponsors and
building alliances. If you do it the clean way you still have to
do the legwork. Have some politician sponsor the work. Hire some
of the locals as helpers. Being officially, gainfully employed will
make them, and possibly the entire tribe, positively geared towards
your enterprise.

Engange officialdom, but avoit the police and armed forces if you can.
A generally respected mayor on your side will do a lot more for you.
A handful of honest jobs to locals may do the right trick.

And, whenever someone are helpful, it is customary to give a small tip.

I don't consider this a bribe; the setting is a lot closer to
a New York cabbie helping you with your suitcases than getting an
Egyptian to clear your papers.

Also, you need to learn to haggle, indonesian style. (The haggling
is of an intensity that will make arabs blush.). Engage porters, they
make your life a lot easier. It is worth the RP 25-50k.

>Mind you, bribing is illegal in Indonesia too and the government has
>taken several high-level politicians and businessmen to courts for
>taking bribes. However, the risk to get caught is negligible on the
>individual level and the rewards are huge compared to the risk. So
>everyone more or less expects a cut of whatever goes on - starting from
>the guys in immigration at the airport (Try SG$5 inside your passport
>and experience the smoothest immigration ever - not that I would know
>anything about this, though, just heard some guys in the bar talk about
>it. And they do not see it as a bribe - more like a tip.

I find that speaking politely to the guards in indonesian works
even better. This show that you respect them; which is very important
in their society.

>Now, as some of you may know, I do business in some of these places.
>Therefore I'll state for the record that I strongly disapprove bribing
>in all shapes and forms. However, it pays to understand the local ways
>and the fact that western notions of justice have nothing to do with
>them. It also helps to have a local partner to work with.

Amen.

I have seen versions of resorts that do whatever they can to engage
the locals; and they become cemented into the local culture in a few
years; but the large foreign owned complex next door will remain alien
even if decades pass.

-- mrr

In article <5YwWf.263$h97.82@read3.inet.fi>,
Timo Ahomäki <timppa.NOSPAM@ahomaki.DOT.net> wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>Lee Bell kirjoitti:
>>>>It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>>>simply
>>>>failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

>Sadly, though,
>
>In places like Indonesia (and Russia and China and places in Africa
>and...) you do not bribe the government. You bribe the person. It does
>not matter if you have all the paperwork in order through the official
>channels. If the person handling you case does not get their cut, you're
>done. Indonesians especially have a fantastic way of letting you know
>that "it does not matter if you already paid THEM, now you need to to
>pay ME".

I find this a little different in Indonesia. The country is pretty
corrupt, but there are a lot of other things to consider. It is a poor
country with a lot of tribal associations. They generally loathe
rich westeners, but they make exceptions readily.

Because of this nature you must think of getting sponsors and
building alliances. If you do it the clean way you still have to
do the legwork. Have some politician sponsor the work. Hire some
of the locals as helpers. Being officially, gainfully employed will
make them, and possibly the entire tribe, positively geared towards
your enterprise.

Engange officialdom, but avoit the police and armed forces if you can.
A generally respected mayor on your side will do a lot more for you.
A handful of honest jobs to locals may do the right trick.

And, whenever someone are helpful, it is customary to give a small tip.

I don't consider this a bribe; the setting is a lot closer to
a New York cabbie helping you with your suitcases than getting an
Egyptian to clear your papers.

Also, you need to learn to haggle, indonesian style. (The haggling
is of an intensity that will make arabs blush.). Engage porters, they
make your life a lot easier. It is worth the RP 25-50k.

>Mind you, bribing is illegal in Indonesia too and the government has
>taken several high-level politicians and businessmen to courts for
>taking bribes. However, the risk to get caught is negligible on the
>individual level and the rewards are huge compared to the risk. So
>everyone more or less expects a cut of whatever goes on - starting from
>the guys in immigration at the airport (Try SG$5 inside your passport
>and experience the smoothest immigration ever - not that I would know
>anything about this, though, just heard some guys in the bar talk about
>it. And they do not see it as a bribe - more like a tip.

I find that speaking politely to the guards in indonesian works
even better. This show that you respect them; which is very important
in their society.

>Now, as some of you may know, I do business in some of these places.
>Therefore I'll state for the record that I strongly disapprove bribing
>in all shapes and forms. However, it pays to understand the local ways
>and the fact that western notions of justice have nothing to do with
>them. It also helps to have a local partner to work with.

Amen.

I have seen versions of resorts that do whatever they can to engage
the locals; and they become cemented into the local culture in a few
years; but the large foreign owned complex next door will remain alien
even if decades pass.

-- mrr

In article <5YwWf.263$h97.82@read3.inet.fi>,
Timo Ahomäki <timppa.NOSPAM@ahomaki.DOT.net> wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>Lee Bell kirjoitti:
>>>>It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>>>simply
>>>>failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

>Sadly, though,
>
>In places like Indonesia (and Russia and China and places in Africa
>and...) you do not bribe the government. You bribe the person. It does
>not matter if you have all the paperwork in order through the official
>channels. If the person handling you case does not get their cut, you're
>done. Indonesians especially have a fantastic way of letting you know
>that "it does not matter if you already paid THEM, now you need to to
>pay ME".

I find this a little different in Indonesia. The country is pretty
corrupt, but there are a lot of other things to consider. It is a poor
country with a lot of tribal associations. They generally loathe
rich westeners, but they make exceptions readily.

Because of this nature you must think of getting sponsors and
building alliances. If you do it the clean way you still have to
do the legwork. Have some politician sponsor the work. Hire some
of the locals as helpers. Being officially, gainfully employed will
make them, and possibly the entire tribe, positively geared towards
your enterprise.

Engange officialdom, but avoit the police and armed forces if you can.
A generally respected mayor on your side will do a lot more for you.
A handful of honest jobs to locals may do the right trick.

And, whenever someone are helpful, it is customary to give a small tip.

I don't consider this a bribe; the setting is a lot closer to
a New York cabbie helping you with your suitcases than getting an
Egyptian to clear your papers.

Also, you need to learn to haggle, indonesian style. (The haggling
is of an intensity that will make arabs blush.). Engage porters, they
make your life a lot easier. It is worth the RP 25-50k.

>Mind you, bribing is illegal in Indonesia too and the government has
>taken several high-level politicians and businessmen to courts for
>taking bribes. However, the risk to get caught is negligible on the
>individual level and the rewards are huge compared to the risk. So
>everyone more or less expects a cut of whatever goes on - starting from
>the guys in immigration at the airport (Try SG$5 inside your passport
>and experience the smoothest immigration ever - not that I would know
>anything about this, though, just heard some guys in the bar talk about
>it. And they do not see it as a bribe - more like a tip.

I find that speaking politely to the guards in indonesian works
even better. This show that you respect them; which is very important
in their society.

>Now, as some of you may know, I do business in some of these places.
>Therefore I'll state for the record that I strongly disapprove bribing
>in all shapes and forms. However, it pays to understand the local ways
>and the fact that western notions of justice have nothing to do with
>them. It also helps to have a local partner to work with.

Amen.

I have seen versions of resorts that do whatever they can to engage
the locals; and they become cemented into the local culture in a few
years; but the large foreign owned complex next door will remain alien
even if decades pass.

-- mrr

In article <5YwWf.263$h97.82@read3.inet.fi>,
Timo Ahomäki <timppa.NOSPAM@ahomaki.DOT.net> wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>Lee Bell kirjoitti:
>>>>It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>>>simply
>>>>failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

>Sadly, though,
>
>In places like Indonesia (and Russia and China and places in Africa
>and...) you do not bribe the government. You bribe the person. It does
>not matter if you have all the paperwork in order through the official
>channels. If the person handling you case does not get their cut, you're
>done. Indonesians especially have a fantastic way of letting you know
>that "it does not matter if you already paid THEM, now you need to to
>pay ME".

I find this a little different in Indonesia. The country is pretty
corrupt, but there are a lot of other things to consider. It is a poor
country with a lot of tribal associations. They generally loathe
rich westeners, but they make exceptions readily.

Because of this nature you must think of getting sponsors and
building alliances. If you do it the clean way you still have to
do the legwork. Have some politician sponsor the work. Hire some
of the locals as helpers. Being officially, gainfully employed will
make them, and possibly the entire tribe, positively geared towards
your enterprise.

Engange officialdom, but avoit the police and armed forces if you can.
A generally respected mayor on your side will do a lot more for you.
A handful of honest jobs to locals may do the right trick.

And, whenever someone are helpful, it is customary to give a small tip.

I don't consider this a bribe; the setting is a lot closer to
a New York cabbie helping you with your suitcases than getting an
Egyptian to clear your papers.

Also, you need to learn to haggle, indonesian style. (The haggling
is of an intensity that will make arabs blush.). Engage porters, they
make your life a lot easier. It is worth the RP 25-50k.

>Mind you, bribing is illegal in Indonesia too and the government has
>taken several high-level politicians and businessmen to courts for
>taking bribes. However, the risk to get caught is negligible on the
>individual level and the rewards are huge compared to the risk. So
>everyone more or less expects a cut of whatever goes on - starting from
>the guys in immigration at the airport (Try SG$5 inside your passport
>and experience the smoothest immigration ever - not that I would know
>anything about this, though, just heard some guys in the bar talk about
>it. And they do not see it as a bribe - more like a tip.

I find that speaking politely to the guards in indonesian works
even better. This show that you respect them; which is very important
in their society.

>Now, as some of you may know, I do business in some of these places.
>Therefore I'll state for the record that I strongly disapprove bribing
>in all shapes and forms. However, it pays to understand the local ways
>and the fact that western notions of justice have nothing to do with
>them. It also helps to have a local partner to work with.

Amen.

I have seen versions of resorts that do whatever they can to engage
the locals; and they become cemented into the local culture in a few
years; but the large foreign owned complex next door will remain alien
even if decades pass.

-- mrr