Diving Archeologists wrongfully detained by indonesian police

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"Matthias Voss" <spammat.voss@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:e0asfv$eg3$03$1@news.t-online.com...
> Froggy wrote:
>
>> Popeye wrote:
>>
>>>"Matthias Voss" <mat.voss@t-online.de> wrote in message
>>>news:44285271.3060100@t-online.de...
>>>
>>>>This document contains frames, which cannot be edited. The original
>>>>document is attached.
>>>
>>> Do you know these guys, and is there an English version somewhere?
>>
>>
>> But be careful, you may end up helping some French and German guys
>>
>> If you want something that sounds very much like the version of the
>> facts peddled by the Indonesian police:
>> http://www.cdnn.info/news/industry/i060309.html
>>
>> This version is more succint but looks a bit more balanced:
>> http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/s.../FK20Wd07.html
>>
>> I would find it difficult to believe that these divers may be
>> considered as "looters" given the high-profile they gave to their
>> project, that they constantly updated the authorities about the
>> findings, or the fact that they had some Indonesian Marines onboard for
>> protection (for good reasons: at one point in time, the Indonesian army
>> had to protect the Jakarta warehouse holding the finds, against ....
>> the Indonesian police).
>
> Cite one french diver:
> "Diver Jean-Paul Blancan insists the reason the team incurred the navy's
> wrath is the team used legal rather than corrupt channels. ``We're
> certainly one of the only teams to have worked completely within the
> law,'' he said. ``That must upset a few people. Here, nobody works like
> that.''"
>
> This guy is absolutely right.
> Nothing upsets corrupt authorities more than playing by the legal rules.

Not even nessersarily corrupt. Part of their job is to get bribes. The
military gets about 1/3 of its funding from the government and the other 2/3
from bribes. It's one of the few places in the world where you can get a
receipt for your bribe (you can imagine what response 'bribe' gets from
beancounters - always get a receipt).
Anybody working there without this kind of basic knowledge is asking to get
locked up. Why should I offer any kind of assistance to them when I know
that they can just bribe their way out?

Alun Harford

Froggy wrote:

> Popeye wrote:
>
>>"Matthias Voss" <mat.voss@t-online.de> wrote in message
>>news:44285271.3060100@t-online.de...
>>
> If you want something that sounds very much like the version of the
> facts peddled by the Indonesian police:
> http://www.cdnn.info/news/industry/i060309.html
>
> This version is more succint but looks a bit more balanced:
> http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/s.../FK20Wd07.html


By far the best press article I found here:
http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=368349

The most important clue I get from this is by the fact that
first) police divers went down th the site, then) all at
once allegedly withheld material was found on a ship, and
where the crews lodged.

Seems quite clear that the police needed to place fake
evidence, accentuated by the fact that were accompanied by
opponents form this indonesian/australien concurrent party.

Matthias





>
> I would find it difficult to believe that these divers may be
> considered as "looters" given the high-profile they gave to their
> project, that they constantly updated the authorities about the
> findings, or the fact that they had some Indonesian Marines onboard for
> protection (for good reasons: at one point in time, the Indonesian army
> had to protect the Jakarta warehouse holding the finds, against ....
> the Indonesian police).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Froggy
>

"Alun Harford" <usernet@alunharford.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e0b5g7$il0$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...

> Why should I offer any kind of assistance to them when I know that they
> can just bribe their way out?

To prove you're not some smarmy peice of shit?

Oh, wait.

You've already established that, your reputation precedes you.

Are you Canadian?


>
> Alun Harford
>

"Robert C. Helling" <robert@atdotde.iu-bremen.de> wrote in message
news:slrne2i8g7.u07.robert@atdotde.iu-bremen.de...

> I find your attitude somewhat strange.

I'm sure he's used to it.

Matthias Voss wrote:

> Dear friends,
> it is time to act.
>
> Professional Archeologists and Divers, who operated with consent,
> contracts and licenses issued by Indonesian authorities and government,
> to explore a shiwpwreck site in Indonesian waters, have been recently
> detained by the local police in Indonesia.

Where were you when Mel Fisher went through essentially the same BS?

"Froggy" <hub666@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143549708.249281.56240@t31g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
> And more generally, would you prefer to see underwater exploration
> conducted in an appropriate way by professional types, or being looted
> at the expense of scientific knowledge and artifacts conservation?

What's to stop professional types from paying bribes?
Is it unprofessional to realise the social context that you are operating
within and conduct your business appropriately, instead of assuming that the
whole world is exactly like in the west?

Alun Harford

Alun Harford wrote:
> "Robert C. Helling" <robert@atdotde.iu-bremen.de> wrote in message
> news:slrne2i8g7.u07.robert@atdotde.iu-bremen.de...
>
>>I just happen to know one of the divers personally (better than I know
>>you) as he is an instructor in my club. I find your attitude somewhat
>>strange. These people specifically decided to do their excavation
>>legally in order to preserve the artefacts and make them available to
>>research and museums (besides making some money for themselves) rather
>>than use illegal methods which would make these artefacts go into dark
>>channels and effectively disappear. The whole point is that they are
>>not looters but scientists. If they "just bribe their way out" they
>>would be arrested next time again and then also charged for bribery
>>which would substantially increase the amount of cash needed to "just
>>bribe them out" for the second time otherwise not changing much.
>
>
> You've missed my point. In the west, we have taxation. You pay the tax
> people so that the police don't come and lock you up. In Indonesia, you pay
> the police etc directly. Governments need to raise income, and both systems
> work. Taxation has the disadvantage that you need far more layers of
> bureaucracy, while bribary has disadvantages with regard to fairness (people
> who cannot afford to bribe have less access to services provided by
> government).
>
> If they choose to go there and try to use the "western" system, they're
> going to get locked up, just like if somebody were to come to the west and
> try to hand out bribes.
>
> Alun Harford
>
>


BS. No government can continue with implicit funding mechanisms. If
the "direct pay" method is not explicitly required and enumerated, then
it is not only contrary to the concept of "rule of law" but it is also
arbitrary and capricious. It wouldn't take very long at all for a
government so funded to find itself the victim of "free-market forces."

After all, what's the difference between bribing an official and paying
protection money to the local "non-governmental militia"

mike gray wrote:

> Matthias Voss wrote:
>
>> Dear friends,
>> it is time to act.
>>
>> Professional Archeologists and Divers, who operated with consent,
>> contracts and licenses issued by Indonesian authorities and
>> government, to explore a shiwpwreck site in Indonesian waters, have
>> been recently detained by the local police in Indonesia.
>
>
> Where were you when Mel Fisher went through essentially the same BS?
>

Not reborn yet.

Greets,
Matthias

Lee Bell wrote:
> >> It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
> >> simply
> >> failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
> > That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
> > government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
> > have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
> > reputation.
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.

This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
Indonesia...).

The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
tried.

Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
more likely to be bullied.

Cheers,

Froggy

"Froggy" wrote

> This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.

At this point, I'd say it's more of a certainty.

> However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
> evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
> getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
> revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
> their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
> managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
> cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
> Indonesia...).
>
> The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
> of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
> tried.

Agreed. I don't blame the divers. They did what they could. It seems,
however, that they missed something that has now risen up to bite them.

> Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
> bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
> this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
> your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
> more likely to be bullied.

Moral issues are not under discussion. Practical ones are. It appears that
the competitors, who are probably out there picking loot off the wreck as we
type had a better grasp of the practicalities than those currently
incarcerated.

Lee