Diving Archeologists wrongfully detained by indonesian police

X-No-Archive: Yes

Lee Bell kirjoitti:
>>>It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>>simply
>>>failed to include everyone that should have been considered.
>
>
>>That's a bit easy. How can you know that they have bribed the
>>government? Actually, if this had been the case this would probably
>>have been exposed already, given the efforts made to trash these guys'
>>reputation.
>
>
> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil. Sadly,
> there's mounting evidence my government was too.
>
> Lee
>
>

Sadly, though,

In places like Indonesia (and Russia and China and places in Africa
and...) you do not bribe the government. You bribe the person. It does
not matter if you have all the paperwork in order through the official
channels. If the person handling you case does not get their cut, you're
done. Indonesians especially have a fantastic way of letting you know
that "it does not matter if you already paid THEM, now you need to to
pay ME".

Mind you, bribing is illegal in Indonesia too and the government has
taken several high-level politicians and businessmen to courts for
taking bribes. However, the risk to get caught is negligible on the
individual level and the rewards are huge compared to the risk. So
everyone more or less expects a cut of whatever goes on - starting from
the guys in immigration at the airport (Try SG$5 inside your passport
and experience the smoothest immigration ever - not that I would know
anything about this, though, just heard some guys in the bar talk about
it. And they do not see it as a bribe - more like a tip.

Now, as some of you may know, I do business in some of these places.
Therefore I'll state for the record that I strongly disapprove bribing
in all shapes and forms. However, it pays to understand the local ways
and the fact that western notions of justice have nothing to do with
them. It also helps to have a local partner to work with.

timo

Lee Bell wrote:
> "Froggy" wrote
>
> > This being Indonesia, corruption is a possibility.
>
> At this point, I'd say it's more of a certainty.
>
> > However it seems (until proven otherwise, but so far there is no
> > evidence) that these divers did try to do things "the right way",
> > getting governmental approval in return for an an over-the-counter
> > revenue sharing between the company and the government, disclosing
> > their findings in real time etc... But their competitors somehow
> > managed to get the police involved (and seeing the very close
> > cooperation between the police and that other company, and it being
> > Indonesia...).
> >
> > The lesson may be that it is indeed difficult to run a "clean" business
> > of this nature in Indonesia, but one cannot blame the divers for having
> > tried.
>
> Agreed. I don't blame the divers. They did what they could. It seems,
> however, that they missed something that has now risen up to bite them.
>
> > Regarding the cynical view that they should have paid the necessary
> > bribes, and leaving moral considerations aside, I do not believe that
> > this would work. Afterwards, people know that you will pay, you weaken
> > your legal position a lot, and so if you make a big find you're even
> > more likely to be bullied.
>
> Moral issues are not under discussion. Practical ones are. It appears that
> the competitors, who are probably out there picking loot off the wreck as we
> type had a better grasp of the practicalities than those currently
> incarcerated.

You may be correct.

OTOH the army or navy may be protecting the wreck (as they did with the
Jakarta warehouse), especially given the case's profile (or because
they had some vested interest in the sales' proceeds, who knows).

I lived in Thailand for some time and I remeber reports of a gunfight
erupting when the Thai police tried to close (or racket?) an illegal
casino ... protected by the army.

Stuff happens...

Cheers,

Froggy

"Popeye" wrote

>> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
>> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil.
>> Sadly, there's mounting evidence my government was too.
>
> Got any info on that?

All I need is easily visible at the gas pump. Then there's Bush's comments
regarding America's addiction to gas. Not bad coming from a family that
made millions on that addiction. Then there's the tax breaks being given to
oil companies who claim that they have to raise prices, but who are enjoying
the highest profits in their history.

Not enough? OK, how about the lack of reaction to rapidly increasing gas
costs and the claims that it was a supply issue related to the middle east
when we have, right here in our own country, scores of untapped wells we
simply chose not to use.

Still not enough? Try this. In the Big Cypress Preserve, there's a dirt
road called Eleven Mile Road. It used to be open for people to see what the
Big Cypress looks like without spending the money to buy ATVs, Airboats or
Swamp Buggies. There's a big sign at the locked gate telling how it's been
closed do to safety and environmental reasons. The presence of endangered
Florida Panthers is specifically mentioned. According to the sign, it will
soon be returned to its natural state. It really is, by the way, part of
the range of Florida panthers. We saw their tracks near the road as
recently as last Saturday.

What the sign doesn't say is that there is one group that is allowed to use
that road, without supervision and without coming even close to the 15 mph
speed limit posted from one end of it to the other. Remember those
panthers? The one group the oil company operating 6 oil well pads at the
north end of that road. Sound like the use of federal money and federal
lands for the direct benefit of the oil industry to you? It damned sure
does to me.

Sound like something done to protect the environment? Sound like the road
really will be returned to its natural state soon? Oil pads in the
Everglades? Speeding trucks on a trucked in gravel road 4 feet above the
surrounding area? Doesn't sound real eco friendly to me.

I happen to have first hand knowledge of this because I spent most of the
day on Saturday looking for, and finding, a back way into that road. I
wanted to see what was there and, as it happens, we're having a bit of a
drought right now. The area, which is open to disbursed use (once you're
more than a mile from the highway) is normally too wet for ATV access. It's
still not easy to cross the 3 or 4 miles from the Dade Collier Transition
and Training Airport (proposed jetport that failed due to real environmental
issues), but it's possible. I know about the trucks using the road at
excessive speeds because I saw them with my own two eyes and damned near met
one of them head on. I know about the oil pads because I talked to the
driver of that truck and because I found them on Google Earth. If I get a
chance to get back before we get enough rain to make the area hard to
access, I'll find a back, legal way in and get my pictures. On Saturday,
however, I figured that, once I'd talked to the oil man, who had a radio in
his truck, on the road, probably should leave before the Park Service came
to deal with us environmentally unfriendly trespassers on their "closed for
environmental reasons" oil road.

Neither the road, nor the oil pads, are on the Big Cypress maps. They are,
however, easily visible on Google earth. If you're interested in seeing
them, open Google Earth (you may have to load it, but it's free and worth
the time) and go to N 25 59 14.10/W 80 55 05.35 with the view set to about
18000 feet (get to the coordinates first) to see the end of the roads and
the oil pads. N 25 55 36.40/ W 80 56 22.21 with the view set to about 15
miles to see the whole road.

Lee

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:nOSWf.2818$L6.2479@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> "Popeye" wrote
>
>>> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
>>> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil.
>>> Sadly, there's mounting evidence my government was too.
>>
>> Got any info on that?

<popeye squints>


Well, -alrighty- then...


I thought you meant some UN Oil For Food complicity or something.

--

"The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storms terrible,
but they have
never found these dangers sufficient reason for remaining ashore." -
Vincent van Gogh

www.finalprotectivefire.com

> All I need is easily visible at the gas pump. Then there's Bush's
> comments regarding America's addiction to gas. Not bad coming from a
> family that made millions on that addiction. Then there's the tax breaks
> being given to oil companies who claim that they have to raise prices, but
> who are enjoying the highest profits in their history.
>
> Not enough? OK, how about the lack of reaction to rapidly increasing gas
> costs and the claims that it was a supply issue related to the middle east
> when we have, right here in our own country, scores of untapped wells we
> simply chose not to use.
>
> Still not enough? Try this. In the Big Cypress Preserve, there's a dirt
> road called Eleven Mile Road. It used to be open for people to see what
> the Big Cypress looks like without spending the money to buy ATVs,
> Airboats or Swamp Buggies. There's a big sign at the locked gate telling
> how it's been closed do to safety and environmental reasons. The presence
> of endangered Florida Panthers is specifically mentioned. According to
> the sign, it will soon be returned to its natural state. It really is, by
> the way, part of the range of Florida panthers. We saw their tracks near
> the road as recently as last Saturday.
>
> What the sign doesn't say is that there is one group that is allowed to
> use that road, without supervision and without coming even close to the 15
> mph speed limit posted from one end of it to the other. Remember those
> panthers? The one group the oil company operating 6 oil well pads at the
> north end of that road. Sound like the use of federal money and federal
> lands for the direct benefit of the oil industry to you? It damned sure
> does to me.
>
> Sound like something done to protect the environment? Sound like the road
> really will be returned to its natural state soon? Oil pads in the
> Everglades? Speeding trucks on a trucked in gravel road 4 feet above the
> surrounding area? Doesn't sound real eco friendly to me.
>
> I happen to have first hand knowledge of this because I spent most of the
> day on Saturday looking for, and finding, a back way into that road. I
> wanted to see what was there and, as it happens, we're having a bit of a
> drought right now. The area, which is open to disbursed use (once you're
> more than a mile from the highway) is normally too wet for ATV access.
> It's still not easy to cross the 3 or 4 miles from the Dade Collier
> Transition and Training Airport (proposed jetport that failed due to real
> environmental issues), but it's possible. I know about the trucks using
> the road at excessive speeds because I saw them with my own two eyes and
> damned near met one of them head on. I know about the oil pads because I
> talked to the driver of that truck and because I found them on Google
> Earth. If I get a chance to get back before we get enough rain to make
> the area hard to access, I'll find a back, legal way in and get my
> pictures. On Saturday, however, I figured that, once I'd talked to the
> oil man, who had a radio in his truck, on the road, probably should leave
> before the Park Service came to deal with us environmentally unfriendly
> trespassers on their "closed for environmental reasons" oil road.
>
> Neither the road, nor the oil pads, are on the Big Cypress maps. They
> are, however, easily visible on Google earth. If you're interested in
> seeing them, open Google Earth (you may have to load it, but it's free and
> worth the time) and go to N 25 59 14.10/W 80 55 05.35 with the view set to
> about 18000 feet (get to the coordinates first) to see the end of the
> roads and the oil pads. N 25 55 36.40/ W 80 56 22.21 with the view set to
> about 15 miles to see the whole road.
>
> Lee
>

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:M6VWf.2730$L7.1102@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> "Popeye" wrote
>
>>>>> Governments are bribed all the time. I think there's quite a bit of
>>>>> evidence that your government was, fairly recently bribed with oil.
>>>>> Sadly, there's mounting evidence my government was too.
>>>>
>>>> Got any info on that?
>>
>> <popeye squints>
>>
>>
>> Well, -alrighty- then...
>
>> I thought you meant some UN Oil For Food complicity or something.
>
> I did relative to the French.
>
> Come to think of it, I'm not so sure we didn't do something similar
> ourselves. Remember when they flew Osama's family out of the US right
> after the planes hit the WTC? Ever wonder what was up with that?


I never read or thought much about it, because charliekeys is the only
person I ever heard it from.

But if there was anything surreptitious there,

a) They'd have been gone long before hand, and,

b) You'd never have heard about it.



--

"The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storms
terrible, but they have never found these dangers sufficient
reason for remaining ashore." - Vincent van Gogh

www.finalprotectivefire.com

(CBS) Two dozen members of Osama bin Laden's family were urgently evacuated
from the United States in the first days following the terrorist attacks on
New York and Washington, according to the Saudi ambassador to Washington.

One of bin Laden's brothers frantically called the Saudi Arabian Embassy in
Washington looking for protection, Prince Bandar bin Sultan told The New
York Times. The brother was sent to a room in the Watergate Hotel and was
told not to open the door.

Most of bin Laden's relatives were attending high school and college. The
young members of the bin Laden family were driven or flown under FBI
supervision to a secret place in Texas and then to Washington, The Times
reported Sunday.

Many were terrified, fearing they would be lynched after hearing reports of
violence against Muslims and Arab-Americans.

They left the country on a private charter plane when airports reopened
three days after the attacks.

King Fahd, the ailing Saudi ruler, sent an urgent message to his embassy in
Washington pointing out that there were "bin Laden children all over
America" and ordered, "Take measures to protect the innocents," the
ambassador said.

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:IiWWf.2746$L7.370@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> My apologies for cross posting this stuff the UKRS and other lists. The
> discussion has changed and I failed to note my messages were going to a
> variety of people no longer likely to be interested.
>
> I'll try to do better.
>
> Lee

Ooops.

I'd apologize too, but they all already hate me over there anyway.



I'll cut it from the header.

"Greg Mossman" wrote

> You might want to watch Fahrenheit 9/11 someday. Moore goes into much
> further detail about the long time cooperation and friendship between the
> Bush and Bin Laden families pre- and post-9/11.

I would, but Michael is such a lying sack of shit that I just can't bring
myself to do so. It takes to long to separate the truth from his bullshit.

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:FjfXf.1078$Q8.780@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> "Greg Mossman" wrote
>
>> You might want to watch Fahrenheit 9/11 someday. Moore goes into much
>> further detail about the long time cooperation and friendship between the
>> Bush and Bin Laden families pre- and post-9/11.
>
> I would, but Michael is such a lying sack of shit that I just can't bring
> myself to do so. It takes to long to separate the truth from his
> bullshit.

Either way, it's a fun movie. No one would watch his movies if they were
boring bullshit. He's very entertaining.

In article <5YwWf.263$h97.82@read3.inet.fi>,
Timo Ahomäki <timppa.NOSPAM@ahomaki.DOT.net> wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>Lee Bell kirjoitti:
>>>>It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and
>>>>simply
>>>>failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

>Sadly, though,
>
>In places like Indonesia (and Russia and China and places in Africa
>and...) you do not bribe the government. You bribe the person. It does
>not matter if you have all the paperwork in order through the official
>channels. If the person handling you case does not get their cut, you're
>done. Indonesians especially have a fantastic way of letting you know
>that "it does not matter if you already paid THEM, now you need to to
>pay ME".

I find this a little different in Indonesia. The country is pretty
corrupt, but there are a lot of other things to consider. It is a poor
country with a lot of tribal associations. They generally loathe
rich westeners, but they make exceptions readily.

Because of this nature you must think of getting sponsors and
building alliances. If you do it the clean way you still have to
do the legwork. Have some politician sponsor the work. Hire some
of the locals as helpers. Being officially, gainfully employed will
make them, and possibly the entire tribe, positively geared towards
your enterprise.

Engange officialdom, but avoit the police and armed forces if you can.
A generally respected mayor on your side will do a lot more for you.
A handful of honest jobs to locals may do the right trick.

And, whenever someone are helpful, it is customary to give a small tip.

I don't consider this a bribe; the setting is a lot closer to
a New York cabbie helping you with your suitcases than getting an
Egyptian to clear your papers.

Also, you need to learn to haggle, indonesian style. (The haggling
is of an intensity that will make arabs blush.). Engage porters, they
make your life a lot easier. It is worth the RP 25-50k.

>Mind you, bribing is illegal in Indonesia too and the government has
>taken several high-level politicians and businessmen to courts for
>taking bribes. However, the risk to get caught is negligible on the
>individual level and the rewards are huge compared to the risk. So
>everyone more or less expects a cut of whatever goes on - starting from
>the guys in immigration at the airport (Try SG$5 inside your passport
>and experience the smoothest immigration ever - not that I would know
>anything about this, though, just heard some guys in the bar talk about
>it. And they do not see it as a bribe - more like a tip.

I find that speaking politely to the guards in indonesian works
even better. This show that you respect them; which is very important
in their society.

>Now, as some of you may know, I do business in some of these places.
>Therefore I'll state for the record that I strongly disapprove bribing
>in all shapes and forms. However, it pays to understand the local ways
>and the fact that western notions of justice have nothing to do with
>them. It also helps to have a local partner to work with.

Amen.

I have seen versions of resorts that do whatever they can to engage
the locals; and they become cemented into the local culture in a few
years; but the large foreign owned complex next door will remain alien
even if decades pass.

-- mrr