Diving Archeologists wrongfully detained by indonesian police

"Froggy" wrote

> Given the background of these guys, unless you do have a specific
> expertise, they probably know a lot more on how to operate there than
> you do.

Perhaps not. They don't seem to be doing too well at the moment.

> For this type of operation, paying a bribe would probably be
> counterproductive. They got a legitimate deal with the government. The
> competitor bribes the police and the police gets in the way. Now if
> they had bribed the government to start with, then they would be in
> deep trouble because they would have no basis to counter the police
> action. Here they can at least hope that international pressure and
> exposure in the media will help them.

Maybe they should have paid off the police too?

It's pretty certain that they sould have kept the value of what they were
recovering a bit less public.

> And more generally, would you prefer to see underwater exploration
> conducted in an appropriate way by professional types, or being looted
> at the expense of scientific knowledge and artifacts conservation?

How much difference is there. The articles I read seem to indicate that
they are planning on selling the items they recover at auction, with 50% of
the proceeds going to the Indonesian government. How does that preserve the
scientific knowledge or artifacts?

It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and simply
failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

Lee

"Froggy" wrote

> Given the background of these guys, unless you do have a specific
> expertise, they probably know a lot more on how to operate there than
> you do.

Perhaps not. They don't seem to be doing too well at the moment.

> For this type of operation, paying a bribe would probably be
> counterproductive. They got a legitimate deal with the government. The
> competitor bribes the police and the police gets in the way. Now if
> they had bribed the government to start with, then they would be in
> deep trouble because they would have no basis to counter the police
> action. Here they can at least hope that international pressure and
> exposure in the media will help them.

Maybe they should have paid off the police too?

It's pretty certain that they sould have kept the value of what they were
recovering a bit less public.

> And more generally, would you prefer to see underwater exploration
> conducted in an appropriate way by professional types, or being looted
> at the expense of scientific knowledge and artifacts conservation?

How much difference is there. The articles I read seem to indicate that
they are planning on selling the items they recover at auction, with 50% of
the proceeds going to the Indonesian government. How does that preserve the
scientific knowledge or artifacts?

It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and simply
failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

Lee

"Froggy" wrote

> Given the background of these guys, unless you do have a specific
> expertise, they probably know a lot more on how to operate there than
> you do.

Perhaps not. They don't seem to be doing too well at the moment.

> For this type of operation, paying a bribe would probably be
> counterproductive. They got a legitimate deal with the government. The
> competitor bribes the police and the police gets in the way. Now if
> they had bribed the government to start with, then they would be in
> deep trouble because they would have no basis to counter the police
> action. Here they can at least hope that international pressure and
> exposure in the media will help them.

Maybe they should have paid off the police too?

It's pretty certain that they sould have kept the value of what they were
recovering a bit less public.

> And more generally, would you prefer to see underwater exploration
> conducted in an appropriate way by professional types, or being looted
> at the expense of scientific knowledge and artifacts conservation?

How much difference is there. The articles I read seem to indicate that
they are planning on selling the items they recover at auction, with 50% of
the proceeds going to the Indonesian government. How does that preserve the
scientific knowledge or artifacts?

It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and simply
failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

Lee

"Froggy" wrote

> Given the background of these guys, unless you do have a specific
> expertise, they probably know a lot more on how to operate there than
> you do.

Perhaps not. They don't seem to be doing too well at the moment.

> For this type of operation, paying a bribe would probably be
> counterproductive. They got a legitimate deal with the government. The
> competitor bribes the police and the police gets in the way. Now if
> they had bribed the government to start with, then they would be in
> deep trouble because they would have no basis to counter the police
> action. Here they can at least hope that international pressure and
> exposure in the media will help them.

Maybe they should have paid off the police too?

It's pretty certain that they sould have kept the value of what they were
recovering a bit less public.

> And more generally, would you prefer to see underwater exploration
> conducted in an appropriate way by professional types, or being looted
> at the expense of scientific knowledge and artifacts conservation?

How much difference is there. The articles I read seem to indicate that
they are planning on selling the items they recover at auction, with 50% of
the proceeds going to the Indonesian government. How does that preserve the
scientific knowledge or artifacts?

It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and simply
failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

Lee

"Froggy" wrote

> Given the background of these guys, unless you do have a specific
> expertise, they probably know a lot more on how to operate there than
> you do.

Perhaps not. They don't seem to be doing too well at the moment.

> For this type of operation, paying a bribe would probably be
> counterproductive. They got a legitimate deal with the government. The
> competitor bribes the police and the police gets in the way. Now if
> they had bribed the government to start with, then they would be in
> deep trouble because they would have no basis to counter the police
> action. Here they can at least hope that international pressure and
> exposure in the media will help them.

Maybe they should have paid off the police too?

It's pretty certain that they sould have kept the value of what they were
recovering a bit less public.

> And more generally, would you prefer to see underwater exploration
> conducted in an appropriate way by professional types, or being looted
> at the expense of scientific knowledge and artifacts conservation?

How much difference is there. The articles I read seem to indicate that
they are planning on selling the items they recover at auction, with 50% of
the proceeds going to the Indonesian government. How does that preserve the
scientific knowledge or artifacts?

It seems to me that they have, in fact, established their bribes and simply
failed to include everyone that should have been considered.

Lee

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:09:04 +0100, Alun Harford <usernet@alunharford.co.uk> wrote:

>> Nothing upsets corrupt authorities more than playing by the legal rules.
>
> Not even nessersarily corrupt. Part of their job is to get bribes. The
> military gets about 1/3 of its funding from the government and the other 2/3
> from bribes. It's one of the few places in the world where you can get a
> receipt for your bribe (you can imagine what response 'bribe' gets from
> beancounters - always get a receipt).
> Anybody working there without this kind of basic knowledge is asking to get
> locked up. Why should I offer any kind of assistance to them when I know
> that they can just bribe their way out?
>
> Alun Harford

I just happen to know one of the divers personally (better than I know
you) as he is an instructor in my club. I find your attitude somewhat
strange. These people specifically decided to do their excavation
legally in order to preserve the artefacts and make them available to
research and museums (besides making some money for themselves) rather
than use illegal methods which would make these artefacts go into dark
channels and effectively disappear. The whole point is that they are
not looters but scientists. If they "just bribe their way out" they
would be arrested next time again and then also charged for bribery
which would substantially increase the amount of cash needed to "just
bribe them out" for the second time otherwise not changing much.

Robert


--
..oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo. oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oO
Robert C. Helling School of Science and Engineering
International University Bremen
print "Just another Phone: +49 421-200 3574
stupid .sig\n"; http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~helling

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:09:04 +0100, Alun Harford <usernet@alunharford.co.uk> wrote:

>> Nothing upsets corrupt authorities more than playing by the legal rules.
>
> Not even nessersarily corrupt. Part of their job is to get bribes. The
> military gets about 1/3 of its funding from the government and the other 2/3
> from bribes. It's one of the few places in the world where you can get a
> receipt for your bribe (you can imagine what response 'bribe' gets from
> beancounters - always get a receipt).
> Anybody working there without this kind of basic knowledge is asking to get
> locked up. Why should I offer any kind of assistance to them when I know
> that they can just bribe their way out?
>
> Alun Harford

I just happen to know one of the divers personally (better than I know
you) as he is an instructor in my club. I find your attitude somewhat
strange. These people specifically decided to do their excavation
legally in order to preserve the artefacts and make them available to
research and museums (besides making some money for themselves) rather
than use illegal methods which would make these artefacts go into dark
channels and effectively disappear. The whole point is that they are
not looters but scientists. If they "just bribe their way out" they
would be arrested next time again and then also charged for bribery
which would substantially increase the amount of cash needed to "just
bribe them out" for the second time otherwise not changing much.

Robert


--
..oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo. oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oO
Robert C. Helling School of Science and Engineering
International University Bremen
print "Just another Phone: +49 421-200 3574
stupid .sig\n"; http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~helling

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:09:04 +0100, Alun Harford <usernet@alunharford.co.uk> wrote:

>> Nothing upsets corrupt authorities more than playing by the legal rules.
>
> Not even nessersarily corrupt. Part of their job is to get bribes. The
> military gets about 1/3 of its funding from the government and the other 2/3
> from bribes. It's one of the few places in the world where you can get a
> receipt for your bribe (you can imagine what response 'bribe' gets from
> beancounters - always get a receipt).
> Anybody working there without this kind of basic knowledge is asking to get
> locked up. Why should I offer any kind of assistance to them when I know
> that they can just bribe their way out?
>
> Alun Harford

I just happen to know one of the divers personally (better than I know
you) as he is an instructor in my club. I find your attitude somewhat
strange. These people specifically decided to do their excavation
legally in order to preserve the artefacts and make them available to
research and museums (besides making some money for themselves) rather
than use illegal methods which would make these artefacts go into dark
channels and effectively disappear. The whole point is that they are
not looters but scientists. If they "just bribe their way out" they
would be arrested next time again and then also charged for bribery
which would substantially increase the amount of cash needed to "just
bribe them out" for the second time otherwise not changing much.

Robert


--
..oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo. oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oO
Robert C. Helling School of Science and Engineering
International University Bremen
print "Just another Phone: +49 421-200 3574
stupid .sig\n"; http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~helling

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:09:04 +0100, Alun Harford <usernet@alunharford.co.uk> wrote:

>> Nothing upsets corrupt authorities more than playing by the legal rules.
>
> Not even nessersarily corrupt. Part of their job is to get bribes. The
> military gets about 1/3 of its funding from the government and the other 2/3
> from bribes. It's one of the few places in the world where you can get a
> receipt for your bribe (you can imagine what response 'bribe' gets from
> beancounters - always get a receipt).
> Anybody working there without this kind of basic knowledge is asking to get
> locked up. Why should I offer any kind of assistance to them when I know
> that they can just bribe their way out?
>
> Alun Harford

I just happen to know one of the divers personally (better than I know
you) as he is an instructor in my club. I find your attitude somewhat
strange. These people specifically decided to do their excavation
legally in order to preserve the artefacts and make them available to
research and museums (besides making some money for themselves) rather
than use illegal methods which would make these artefacts go into dark
channels and effectively disappear. The whole point is that they are
not looters but scientists. If they "just bribe their way out" they
would be arrested next time again and then also charged for bribery
which would substantially increase the amount of cash needed to "just
bribe them out" for the second time otherwise not changing much.

Robert


--
..oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo. oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oO
Robert C. Helling School of Science and Engineering
International University Bremen
print "Just another Phone: +49 421-200 3574
stupid .sig\n"; http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~helling

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:09:04 +0100, Alun Harford <usernet@alunharford.co.uk> wrote:

>> Nothing upsets corrupt authorities more than playing by the legal rules.
>
> Not even nessersarily corrupt. Part of their job is to get bribes. The
> military gets about 1/3 of its funding from the government and the other 2/3
> from bribes. It's one of the few places in the world where you can get a
> receipt for your bribe (you can imagine what response 'bribe' gets from
> beancounters - always get a receipt).
> Anybody working there without this kind of basic knowledge is asking to get
> locked up. Why should I offer any kind of assistance to them when I know
> that they can just bribe their way out?
>
> Alun Harford

I just happen to know one of the divers personally (better than I know
you) as he is an instructor in my club. I find your attitude somewhat
strange. These people specifically decided to do their excavation
legally in order to preserve the artefacts and make them available to
research and museums (besides making some money for themselves) rather
than use illegal methods which would make these artefacts go into dark
channels and effectively disappear. The whole point is that they are
not looters but scientists. If they "just bribe their way out" they
would be arrested next time again and then also charged for bribery
which would substantially increase the amount of cash needed to "just
bribe them out" for the second time otherwise not changing much.

Robert


--
..oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo. oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oO
Robert C. Helling School of Science and Engineering
International University Bremen
print "Just another Phone: +49 421-200 3574
stupid .sig\n"; http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~helling