Diving Archeologists wrongfully detained by indonesian police

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:09:04 +0100, Alun Harford <usernet@alunharford.co.uk> wrote:

>> Nothing upsets corrupt authorities more than playing by the legal rules.
>
> Not even nessersarily corrupt. Part of their job is to get bribes. The
> military gets about 1/3 of its funding from the government and the other 2/3
> from bribes. It's one of the few places in the world where you can get a
> receipt for your bribe (you can imagine what response 'bribe' gets from
> beancounters - always get a receipt).
> Anybody working there without this kind of basic knowledge is asking to get
> locked up. Why should I offer any kind of assistance to them when I know
> that they can just bribe their way out?
>
> Alun Harford

I just happen to know one of the divers personally (better than I know
you) as he is an instructor in my club. I find your attitude somewhat
strange. These people specifically decided to do their excavation
legally in order to preserve the artefacts and make them available to
research and museums (besides making some money for themselves) rather
than use illegal methods which would make these artefacts go into dark
channels and effectively disappear. The whole point is that they are
not looters but scientists. If they "just bribe their way out" they
would be arrested next time again and then also charged for bribery
which would substantially increase the amount of cash needed to "just
bribe them out" for the second time otherwise not changing much.

Robert


--
..oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo. oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oO
Robert C. Helling School of Science and Engineering
International University Bremen
print "Just another Phone: +49 421-200 3574
stupid .sig\n"; http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~helling

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:09:04 +0100, Alun Harford <usernet@alunharford.co.uk> wrote:

>> Nothing upsets corrupt authorities more than playing by the legal rules.
>
> Not even nessersarily corrupt. Part of their job is to get bribes. The
> military gets about 1/3 of its funding from the government and the other 2/3
> from bribes. It's one of the few places in the world where you can get a
> receipt for your bribe (you can imagine what response 'bribe' gets from
> beancounters - always get a receipt).
> Anybody working there without this kind of basic knowledge is asking to get
> locked up. Why should I offer any kind of assistance to them when I know
> that they can just bribe their way out?
>
> Alun Harford

I just happen to know one of the divers personally (better than I know
you) as he is an instructor in my club. I find your attitude somewhat
strange. These people specifically decided to do their excavation
legally in order to preserve the artefacts and make them available to
research and museums (besides making some money for themselves) rather
than use illegal methods which would make these artefacts go into dark
channels and effectively disappear. The whole point is that they are
not looters but scientists. If they "just bribe their way out" they
would be arrested next time again and then also charged for bribery
which would substantially increase the amount of cash needed to "just
bribe them out" for the second time otherwise not changing much.

Robert


--
..oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo. oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oO
Robert C. Helling School of Science and Engineering
International University Bremen
print "Just another Phone: +49 421-200 3574
stupid .sig\n"; http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~helling

Matthias Voss wrote:

> Dear friends,
> it is time to act.
>
> Professional Archeologists and Divers, who operated with consent,
> contracts and licenses issued by Indonesian authorities and government,
> to explore a shiwpwreck site in Indonesian waters, have been recently
> detained by the local police in Indonesia.

Where were you when Mel Fisher went through essentially the same BS?

Matthias Voss wrote:

> Dear friends,
> it is time to act.
>
> Professional Archeologists and Divers, who operated with consent,
> contracts and licenses issued by Indonesian authorities and government,
> to explore a shiwpwreck site in Indonesian waters, have been recently
> detained by the local police in Indonesia.

Where were you when Mel Fisher went through essentially the same BS?

Matthias Voss wrote:

> Dear friends,
> it is time to act.
>
> Professional Archeologists and Divers, who operated with consent,
> contracts and licenses issued by Indonesian authorities and government,
> to explore a shiwpwreck site in Indonesian waters, have been recently
> detained by the local police in Indonesia.

Where were you when Mel Fisher went through essentially the same BS?

Matthias Voss wrote:

> Dear friends,
> it is time to act.
>
> Professional Archeologists and Divers, who operated with consent,
> contracts and licenses issued by Indonesian authorities and government,
> to explore a shiwpwreck site in Indonesian waters, have been recently
> detained by the local police in Indonesia.

Where were you when Mel Fisher went through essentially the same BS?

Matthias Voss wrote:

> Dear friends,
> it is time to act.
>
> Professional Archeologists and Divers, who operated with consent,
> contracts and licenses issued by Indonesian authorities and government,
> to explore a shiwpwreck site in Indonesian waters, have been recently
> detained by the local police in Indonesia.

Where were you when Mel Fisher went through essentially the same BS?

Matthias Voss wrote:

> Dear friends,
> it is time to act.
>
> Professional Archeologists and Divers, who operated with consent,
> contracts and licenses issued by Indonesian authorities and government,
> to explore a shiwpwreck site in Indonesian waters, have been recently
> detained by the local police in Indonesia.

Where were you when Mel Fisher went through essentially the same BS?

Matthias Voss wrote:

> Dear friends,
> it is time to act.
>
> Professional Archeologists and Divers, who operated with consent,
> contracts and licenses issued by Indonesian authorities and government,
> to explore a shiwpwreck site in Indonesian waters, have been recently
> detained by the local police in Indonesia.

Where were you when Mel Fisher went through essentially the same BS?

"Robert C. Helling" <robert@atdotde.iu-bremen.de> wrote in message
news:slrne2i8g7.u07.robert@atdotde.iu-bremen.de...
> I just happen to know one of the divers personally (better than I know
> you) as he is an instructor in my club. I find your attitude somewhat
> strange. These people specifically decided to do their excavation
> legally in order to preserve the artefacts and make them available to
> research and museums (besides making some money for themselves) rather
> than use illegal methods which would make these artefacts go into dark
> channels and effectively disappear. The whole point is that they are
> not looters but scientists. If they "just bribe their way out" they
> would be arrested next time again and then also charged for bribery
> which would substantially increase the amount of cash needed to "just
> bribe them out" for the second time otherwise not changing much.

You've missed my point. In the west, we have taxation. You pay the tax
people so that the police don't come and lock you up. In Indonesia, you pay
the police etc directly. Governments need to raise income, and both systems
work. Taxation has the disadvantage that you need far more layers of
bureaucracy, while bribary has disadvantages with regard to fairness (people
who cannot afford to bribe have less access to services provided by
government).

If they choose to go there and try to use the "western" system, they're
going to get locked up, just like if somebody were to come to the west and
try to hand out bribes.

Alun Harford