Mabul versus Kapalai

On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 02:09:29 -0600, the cup of
morgand@cix.compulink.co.uk overfloweth with the following:

> In article <9e4om1dq35di34lumdsq0q7crgkgu8gpcj@4ax.com>,
> grost@NOSPAM.yahoo.co.uk (G Winstanley) wrote:
>
> >
> > Ha ha...so true about the dc torches - give me a Kowalski or Light
> > Cannon any day. Fair enough about guides knowing their way, but what
> > happens when the guide has an accident for some reason? Hmmm...people
> > lost in cavern with no line out. Understood about the video lights, but
> > sometimes less light is more in environments like that, then you stand a
> > chance of seeing the exit light.
>
> I was just saying how we "did" it, not how i would do it again, i agree
> with you, shit happens, lord knows what we would have done if the guide
> had an accident..........jesus, makes you shudder.......all the talk about
> doubling up and spare this and that starts to come into its own here....
> So......should entrance to the tomb be left to the individual guides to
> decide how and when they take guests in there ? my gut feeling is that
> they should not, it should be regulated......
>

I think it's unlikely that they'll stop taking people in there, but I
believe that each dive centre that does guided dives should at least
make sure all the guides are well-versed in cavern diving techniques,
and put them into practice sufficiently to cover the basic potential
problems. It's easy enough to reel into the thing for a quick look
around, so I don't understand why they don't do it. I guess the general
attitude is that if the guide feels happy, then presumably the other
divers are too, despite the guides diving every day and many of the
tourists only doing a week-long trip once a year.

Accidents do and will happen, and as in so many cases it's probably this
that will wake them up to taking a few extra precautions. It's a little
like a UK-run voluntary survey organisation I worked for in Mexico a
couple of years ago. I was hired to run the diving side of the
operation, but the project leader kept overruling my decisions, thinking
he knew better - sending boats out in bad seas during hurricane season,
using boat drivers with no licence/experience, as well as other
non-diving things like forgetting to put in orders for drinking water to
our remote site. Anyway, he got struck down by the god of probability
and was himself the first person to disappear to the chamber with DCS.
Needless to say I quit that job fairly quickly after experiencing his
idiocy. Sadly the organisation is still going, so I just hope nobody's
died since then and they've tightened up their protocols. The day I left
one of the volunteers had to go to the chamber after doing a bit of
freediving following a dive. Needless to say that project leader was on
that boat as well and didn't think to stop it happening. Maybe Darwin
will take care of him eventually...

Stan

Hmm Apprehension,


I thought it would be a good idea to have a look but I haven't done
much caving so don't really want to start with a half trained guide and
dodgy equipment. I imagine it is OK once you learn your way around it
is jus the fear before you get to that stage.


Are there a lot of people in there? It sounds like it could get a
little congested and the silt would get kicked up?





G Winstanley wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 02:09:29 -0600, the cup of
> morgand@cix.compulink.co.uk overfloweth with the following:
>
> > In article <9e4om1dq35di34lumdsq0q7crgkgu8gpcj@4ax.com>,
> > grost@NOSPAM.yahoo.co.uk (G Winstanley) wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Ha ha...so true about the dc torches - give me a Kowalski or Light
> > > Cannon any day. Fair enough about guides knowing their way, but what
> > > happens when the guide has an accident for some reason? Hmmm...people
> > > lost in cavern with no line out. Understood about the video lights, but
> > > sometimes less light is more in environments like that, then you stand a
> > > chance of seeing the exit light.
> >
> > I was just saying how we "did" it, not how i would do it again, i agree
> > with you, shit happens, lord knows what we would have done if the guide
> > had an accident..........jesus, makes you shudder.......all the talk about
> > doubling up and spare this and that starts to come into its own here....
> > So......should entrance to the tomb be left to the individual guides to
> > decide how and when they take guests in there ? my gut feeling is that
> > they should not, it should be regulated......
> >
>
> I think it's unlikely that they'll stop taking people in there, but I
> believe that each dive centre that does guided dives should at least
> make sure all the guides are well-versed in cavern diving techniques,
> and put them into practice sufficiently to cover the basic potential
> problems. It's easy enough to reel into the thing for a quick look
> around, so I don't understand why they don't do it. I guess the general
> attitude is that if the guide feels happy, then presumably the other
> divers are too, despite the guides diving every day and many of the
> tourists only doing a week-long trip once a year.
>
> Accidents do and will happen, and as in so many cases it's probably this
> that will wake them up to taking a few extra precautions. It's a little
> like a UK-run voluntary survey organisation I worked for in Mexico a
> couple of years ago. I was hired to run the diving side of the
> operation, but the project leader kept overruling my decisions, thinking
> he knew better - sending boats out in bad seas during hurricane season,
> using boat drivers with no licence/experience, as well as other
> non-diving things like forgetting to put in orders for drinking water to
> our remote site. Anyway, he got struck down by the god of probability
> and was himself the first person to disappear to the chamber with DCS.
> Needless to say I quit that job fairly quickly after experiencing his
> idiocy. Sadly the organisation is still going, so I just hope nobody's
> died since then and they've tightened up their protocols. The day I left
> one of the volunteers had to go to the chamber after doing a bit of
> freediving following a dive. Needless to say that project leader was on
> that boat as well and didn't think to stop it happening. Maybe Darwin
> will take care of him eventually...
>
> Stan

On 6 Nov 2005 13:24:43 -0800, the cup of "Winethinker"
<johnnyaferg@gmail.com> overfloweth with the following:

> Hmm Apprehension,
>
>
> I thought it would be a good idea to have a look but I haven't done
> much caving so don't really want to start with a half trained guide and
> dodgy equipment. I imagine it is OK once you learn your way around it
> is jus the fear before you get to that stage.
>
>
> Are there a lot of people in there? It sounds like it could get a
> little congested and the silt would get kicked up?
>

Not many when I was there early last year. Only a few people want to go
into the cavern, as most are very content to see unlimited whitetips and
green turtles. The majority of those going into the cave when I was
there were from dive centres on Sipadan, but since those are off-limits
now the situation may have changed, and I don't know how many are led in
there, but I doubt it's so many that you'll be likely to see another
group in there. In any case, the silt in the cavern area settles
(relatively) quickly, whereas that in the actual cave section takes days
to settle back down apparently. Back to the issue: if I were a cavern
first-timer I would want a guide who knew what they were doing. SMART is
the only resort with a dedicated tech centre which solves the argument
for me. Even if I was staying at another I would request a little
consultation from the guys at the tech centre, assuming it's still
operational.

Stan

In article <1131312283.425066.266840@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups .com>,
johnnyaferg@gmail.com (Winethinker) wrote:

> Are there a lot of people in there? It sounds like it could get a
> little congested and the silt would get kicked up?

When i was in there, only me, my wife and guide, i know how to kick in
confined spaces but not everyone does, so i would hate to find novices in
there flapping ang kicking. The senotes of Mexico are much more confined,
the ones i went in anyway, sometimes "squeezing through" openings, the
haloclimes are the most disconcerting thing i experienced down there, when
you hit those all shape and direction has gone, hopefully you come out of
it in time to see which way the guide went. When we did them we hired a
guide at some expense, he was in the middle of "mapping" the senotes, he
did this by hand with line drawings, a french guy by the name of
Harvey..anyone come across him, he lived in port aventures......

Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK