Panama diving?

Anybody dive in Panama, especially around Boca del torres?

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:12:43 -0500, the cup of Jer <gdunn@airmail.ten>
overfloweth with the following:

> Dillon Pyron wrote:
> > On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:11:23 +0100, G Winstanley <nospam@nospam.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>Oh...and one other thing. On the second dive the "leader" lost everyone at
> >>one stage due to bad vis combined with incompetence, so I had to take over
> >>as there were novice divers in the group.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > This is actually a crazy thing to do. You set yourself up for all
> > sorts of liability by "taking over".
> >
> > I never let anybody know I'm an instructor. If I trust the boat crew
> > I'll let them know and usually get a lot more independence, but only
> > rarely.
> >
> > Yes, I may have a greater "duty to act", but I'm not going to let
> > someone think that this allows them to be sloppy or stupid (another
> > word for dead).
> >
> > You may think yourself safe by being in a foreign and, presumably,
> > litigation free country, but remember, Americans can and do sue in US
> > courts for actions outside of our borders.
> >
>
> Yes, Dillon, some of us are familiar with trying to do the right thing
> when it comes to the preservation of life. Fortunately, the Good
> Samaritan Law is there to help out when things turn south despite best
> efforts. Does the term "Heimlich Maneuver" ring a bell?
> Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation? Failure to stop and render aid? No?
> Then go find your own boat and stay the hell off of mine.

Have to say I'm on your side here Jer. While liability is obviously very
important to think about, I'm far happier knowing I've done my bets to
ensure that nobody dies than worrying about whether my attempts to interfere
are likely to get me sued. I'm fully aware of the litigous nature of the
world at present, and would be naive to think otherwise, but I still think
people's lives are more important.

In fact I personally believe I had a moral obligation ("duty to act" as you
say) to do what I did given how incompetent he was, and knowing that I had a
much better chance of managing and controlling the group in the
circumstances. I was in no way encouraging him to be sloppy or stupid, but
merely had the interests of the people in mind. And I made sure to inform
the dive centre manager of the problem.

To me lives ALWAYS come first.

Stan

Stan

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:09:45 +0100, G Winstanley <nospam@nospam.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:12:43 -0500, the cup of Jer <gdunn@airmail.ten>
>overfloweth with the following:
>
>> Dillon Pyron wrote:
>> > On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:11:23 +0100, G Winstanley <nospam@nospam.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >>Oh...and one other thing. On the second dive the "leader" lost everyone at
>> >>one stage due to bad vis combined with incompetence, so I had to take over
>> >>as there were novice divers in the group.
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> > This is actually a crazy thing to do. You set yourself up for all
>> > sorts of liability by "taking over".
>> >
>> > I never let anybody know I'm an instructor. If I trust the boat crew
>> > I'll let them know and usually get a lot more independence, but only
>> > rarely.
>> >
>> > Yes, I may have a greater "duty to act", but I'm not going to let
>> > someone think that this allows them to be sloppy or stupid (another
>> > word for dead).
>> >
>> > You may think yourself safe by being in a foreign and, presumably,
>> > litigation free country, but remember, Americans can and do sue in US
>> > courts for actions outside of our borders.
>> >
>>
>> Yes, Dillon, some of us are familiar with trying to do the right thing
>> when it comes to the preservation of life. Fortunately, the Good
>> Samaritan Law is there to help out when things turn south despite best
>> efforts. Does the term "Heimlich Maneuver" ring a bell?
>> Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation? Failure to stop and render aid? No?
>> Then go find your own boat and stay the hell off of mine.
>
>Have to say I'm on your side here Jer. While liability is obviously very
>important to think about, I'm far happier knowing I've done my bets to
>ensure that nobody dies than worrying about whether my attempts to interfere
>are likely to get me sued. I'm fully aware of the litigous nature of the
>world at present, and would be naive to think otherwise, but I still think
>people's lives are more important.
>
>In fact I personally believe I had a moral obligation ("duty to act" as you
>say) to do what I did given how incompetent he was, and knowing that I had a
>much better chance of managing and controlling the group in the
>circumstances. I was in no way encouraging him to be sloppy or stupid, but
>merely had the interests of the people in mind. And I made sure to inform
>the dive centre manager of the problem.
>
>To me lives ALWAYS come first.
>
Never said they didn't. I refuse to have someone think that because
of my presence, they don't have to be responsible for their own
actions. In addition, I, as a "specially trained individual", have a
higher responsibility (yeah, I know, instructor ~= "specially trained
individual" in most people's eyes). I can, in fact, be held
responsible for failing to act properly. Much in the same way that a
doctor can in the event of an accident. Good Samaritan laws protect
lay people from inadequate actions.

Even if you are protected, that doesn't prevent you from being sued.
And litigation costs money, even if you win.
>Stan
>
>Stan

--
dillon

When I was a kid, I thought the angel's name was Hark
and the horse's name was Bob.

Dillon Pyron wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:09:45 +0100, G Winstanley <nospam@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:12:43 -0500, the cup of Jer <gdunn@airmail.ten>
>>overfloweth with the following:
>>
>>
>>>Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:11:23 +0100, G Winstanley <nospam@nospam.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>>Oh...and one other thing. On the second dive the "leader" lost everyone at
>>>>>one stage due to bad vis combined with incompetence, so I had to take over
>>>>>as there were novice divers in the group.
>>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>This is actually a crazy thing to do. You set yourself up for all
>>>>sorts of liability by "taking over".
>>>>
>>>>I never let anybody know I'm an instructor. If I trust the boat crew
>>>>I'll let them know and usually get a lot more independence, but only
>>>>rarely.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, I may have a greater "duty to act", but I'm not going to let
>>>>someone think that this allows them to be sloppy or stupid (another
>>>>word for dead).
>>>>
>>>>You may think yourself safe by being in a foreign and, presumably,
>>>>litigation free country, but remember, Americans can and do sue in US
>>>>courts for actions outside of our borders.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, Dillon, some of us are familiar with trying to do the right thing
>>>when it comes to the preservation of life. Fortunately, the Good
>>>Samaritan Law is there to help out when things turn south despite best
>>>efforts. Does the term "Heimlich Maneuver" ring a bell?
>>>Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation? Failure to stop and render aid? No?
>>>Then go find your own boat and stay the hell off of mine.
>>
>>Have to say I'm on your side here Jer. While liability is obviously very
>>important to think about, I'm far happier knowing I've done my bets to
>>ensure that nobody dies than worrying about whether my attempts to interfere
>>are likely to get me sued. I'm fully aware of the litigous nature of the
>>world at present, and would be naive to think otherwise, but I still think
>>people's lives are more important.
>>
>>In fact I personally believe I had a moral obligation ("duty to act" as you
>>say) to do what I did given how incompetent he was, and knowing that I had a
>>much better chance of managing and controlling the group in the
>>circumstances. I was in no way encouraging him to be sloppy or stupid, but
>>merely had the interests of the people in mind. And I made sure to inform
>>the dive centre manager of the problem.
>>
>>To me lives ALWAYS come first.
>>
>
> Never said they didn't. I refuse to have someone think that because
> of my presence, they don't have to be responsible for their own
> actions. In addition, I, as a "specially trained individual", have a
> higher responsibility (yeah, I know, instructor ~= "specially trained
> individual" in most people's eyes). I can, in fact, be held
> responsible for failing to act properly. Much in the same way that a
> doctor can in the event of an accident. Good Samaritan laws protect
> lay people from inadequate actions.
>
> Even if you are protected, that doesn't prevent you from being sued.

True.

> And litigation costs money, even if you win.
>


Not when a civil recovery suit if filed - I always file one. There is
no free lunch.


--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know." -- Richard Wilbur