An example of why low PADI standards can be bad

> PADI didn't kill that one.

PADI didn't kill any of them. PADI also didn't train them well enough to
keep them from killing themselves.

Lee

Popeye wrote:
> "Jerome's Sock Puppet" <jerome.oneil@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1155522703.150765.249560@m79g2000cwm.googlegr oups.com...
>> "Mr Jackson was said to have been overweight, and suffering from high
>> blood pressure, asthma and depression, which he had failed to declare
>> on his Padi medical form. "
>>
>> PADI didn't kill that dude.
>>
>> "At a second inquest a novice diver, 64, was said to have died after
>> surfacing too fast,"
>>
>> I'm not PADI certified, but I know for a fact they teach slow ascents,
>> and make you practice them in the pool and in the water. PADI didn't
>> kill that one, either.
>>
>> "and at a third, a builder, 40, who had been diving for a year, was
>> said to have mixed up his air supply tanks."
>>
>> Sucking gas off the wrong bottle can kill you in the pool. PADI didn't
>> do him in, either.
>>
>> I'm gonna have to go with stupidity and hubris as the culprits with
>> these deaders. PADI, certifying almos %85 of the OW divers in the
>> world, is going to come up a lot when there's an accident. 85% of the
>> time, I'm guessing.

my question would be
"does padi's name come up more than 85% of the time"

the interesting answer will be the ratio between
% dumb accidents by padi students |
---------------------------------- | = padi blame factor
85% of the students they certify | if it is larger than 1.00

85% / 85% means that padi is as good as the others

>
> My, what a basic clarity you have.
>
>
>
>

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Rh4Eg.15657$vj1.10402@bignews5.bellsouth.net. ..
>> PADI didn't kill that one.
>
> PADI didn't kill any of them. PADI also didn't train them well enough to
> keep them from killing themselves.

you can never train someone well enough to stop them killing themselves

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:37:35 -0400, "Lee Bell"
<pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> PADI didn't kill any of them. PADI also didn't train them well enough to
> keep them from killing themselves.

Awh, come on, Lee... You're not suggesting that we interfere with
Darwin, are ya'?

dechucka wrote

>> PADI didn't kill any of them. PADI also didn't train them well enough to
>> keep them from killing themselves.

> you can never train someone well enough to stop them killing themselves

Maybe not in Australia, where your operators keep leaving their customers
miles from shore. Here in the States, YMCA, NAUI, SSI and TDI seem to have
done OK with me. 44 years and still going strong.

Lee

"Lee Bell" wrote

>>> PADI didn't kill any of them. PADI also didn't train them well enough
>>> to keep them from killing themselves.
>
>> you can never train someone well enough to stop them killing themselves
>
> Maybe not in Australia, where your operators keep leaving their customers
> miles from shore. Here in the States, YMCA, NAUI, SSI and TDI seem to
> have done OK with me. 44 years and still going strong.

I have, somewhere on a dusty shelf, not one but three PADI "C" cards.
Made 88 dives before I got my first "other", one from SSI, a no-dive Nitrox
Cert. Had 130 dives with PADI as my highest cert level before I started
cave training, prior to DIRF, and passed in the normal window. Somehow, I
not only survived, but learned enough to make a transition to "technical"
diving carrying only PADI cards. 'nuf said.

Curtis

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:sv9Eg.15022$0k4.4775@bignews1.bellsouth.net.. .
> dechucka wrote
>
>>> PADI didn't kill any of them. PADI also didn't train them well enough
>>> to keep them from killing themselves.
>
>> you can never train someone well enough to stop them killing themselves
>
> Maybe not in Australia, where your operators keep leaving their customers
> miles from shore.

they were only septics so that doesn't really count

>Here in the States, YMCA, NAUI, SSI and TDI seem to have done OK with me.
>44 years and still going strong.

and PADI and NAUI have done OK with me but so what. IMHO stupidity/slackness
will overcome any training. In fact your comment about the N Q'land operator
highlights my point there were rules in place and the crew were trained to
not allow this to happen but it did due to slackness and stupidity.

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:31:39 -0400, "Lee Bell"
<pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Good question. I'm not sure. I'm still hung up on getting what you paid
> for.

A piece of paper / plastic that although legally not required, makes
it easier to get an air fill than without it... Yeah, it's a racket,
but at least it's a one-time expense... I don't think that we should
be hindering Darwin though... Sometimes the gene pool needs a bit of
cleaning... If a person can't teach themselves how to dive, should
they really be allowed to contribute to the gene pool?

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:sv9Eg.15022$0k4.4775@bignews1.bellsouth.net.. .
> dechucka wrote
>
>>> PADI didn't kill any of them. PADI also didn't train them well enough
>>> to keep them from killing themselves.
>
>> you can never train someone well enough to stop them killing themselves
>
> Maybe not in Australia, where your operators keep leaving their customers
> miles from shore.

Don't tell those two lawyers that got left in the Keys for 36 hours.

> Here in the States, YMCA, NAUI, SSI and TDI seem to have done OK with me.
> 44 years and still going strong.

Popeye, PADI 3-day wonder.

Almost 10, and still 'a kickin.



--

Popeye
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -
deliberate, contrived, and dishonest - but the myth -
persistent, persuasive, and realistic. - JFK
www.finalprotectivefire.com

> Here in the States, YMCA, NAUI, SSI and TDI seem to have done OK with me.
> 44 years and still going strong.
>
> Lee


Your driving school also did okay with you, 44 years and still going strong.
But with the same logic they do are the worst driving school arround as they
also tought a guy who drove himeself into a pole after a fierce evening in
the local pub.

Now you say that's the guys fault and not the driving schools? Extrapolate
that thought to diving!


Seriously, when I started to look for a scuba-course nearby I had a
preference for the "vijverdal"-pool as it was 4,5 meters deep and 32 degrees
celcius warm (they ussually have revalidation-patients there and the first
director of this now mental hospital was a fervent diver) and litterary
across the street of my inlaws (babysitting the children every friday
night!).

I also had a choice there as there are three diving schools there each
friday. A BSAC, a PADI and an NOB (dutch federation, linked to CMAS). I
visited all three of them at least twice, speaking with several instructors
of each club. Before I went there the first time I had already had a few
strolls over the information highway.

I had absolutely no confidence in the sole instructor of the NOB course, so
they fell off. The BSAC course was free (the training) except for the
membership of the club. They would start teaching me right away and it would
take about a half year to my first outdoor dive and about a year to get
certified as a 1* diver. I found that quite a long time. Moreover, if I
asked what stuff they would teach me and in what order and what I could do
after that I got very long, unorganised answers. So I asked how they tested
if I knew everything to know and managed all skills. The explained that I
was certified after my instructor decided that I was suitable for
certification.

The good thing about this system is the instructors tend to ask a lot of
their candidates before certifying them, just to be on the safe side. The
bad thing is the system is based on loss of knowledge (like the belgian
driving-license system). We teach one guy 30 things and over the years he
teaches other people who teach others who...
No exams to take or any form of controll to check if all the necessary has
been mentioned. If he forgets something important or if I do something per
accident right without knowing why, I can still fail (and thus might get
injured) afterwards without ever knowing what I did wrong.

On the other hand that is also exactly the problem that I have with PADI.
Although their material (books, videos, DVD's, printed standarised exams
etc) are very complete and modular and handle all the stuff that's needed to
know, the time between learning and examining is to short. Before jumping in
the pool they tell you what to do and how to do it. Then you jump in and do
it. If done allright, that station is passed and that skill is considdered
managed. That's a bit to fast. especially to fast to feel secure and
skilled.

Then again, while knowing I've been thought almost all there was to know,
having all the materials in house (you háve to purchase the books and
videos/dvds), I can resume my experiencing in my own pase, repractising the
skills freely in my own time in the pool with the club and re-reading my
theory in my own time. Kinda like the way I was taught to drive: manage the
car and the traffic rules safely and carefully, then get my driving permit
and start learning to drive my car with confidense and experience.

Thus I was PADI certified. I signed the form, filled it in truthfully, got
my medical checkup, both as required by PADI and wanted by me, got the extra
check for PFO, consulted my reumatologist about my wishes and effects on my
medication and started diving in the same conditions as in wich I was taught
or better, as the PADI system and certification require. I did get my
advanced and nitrox in as soon as possible (nitrox to stay on the safe side,
not to go very deep or very long).

I have 26 dives now since december (almost every sunday) and start really
managing my buyoncy. Not the required skills, but really hoovering about 5
centimeters higher or lower if I feel like it, without giving it any
thought. Still practising navigational skills and most of the time just
having fun looking arround and seing what there is to be found at the
bottom. No sea dives yet, just the local lakes and holes and although
certified to 30 metres stayed arround 15-20.

Then again, fools can take a PADI-class, kill themselves and give PADI a bad
name. I can take a PADI-class, dive as safe and responsible as possible and
nobody ever hears about it. If I look arround in my club, the PADI-system
grew a bunch of very responsible safe divers.

Frank