Been to Koh Tao, should I go to PERHENTIANS?

<morgand@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote

>> Never see anybody driving above the posted speed limit? Ever seen
>> anybody driving below the posted speed limit? Do you doubt that each
>> chose a limit they consider safe? Do you doubt that, sometimes, both
>> the speeder and the slower driver, are both safe?

> Seen loads of accidents, dont remember seeing any caused by drivers or
> divers from being within their respective limits.

Really? You're not paying much attention.

>> That which is illegal, may still be safe.
>
> For that individual in that space and time . . .

That's the point. Remember, this discussion is about what is a safe limit
for a single diver, on a single dive, in a single set of circumstances. The
entire point is that there is no one safe limit for all divers for all
dives, or even for one diver for all dives. PPO2 is a measurement and
recommendations are only a starting point.

>> That which is legal, may not be.
>
> Like ?..........
> If you dont break the law you dont get into trouble...

Like driving the legal speed limit when it's raining so hard you can't see.
Like driving the legal speed limit when there's ice on the road reducing
traction.
Like driving the legal speed limit when you're tired and can't react as well
as normal.
Like driving the legal speed limit when there are kids playing in the area.
Like . . . hell, I could go on forever.

>> So far, at least in the States, recreational diving is, for the most
>> part, free of legal constraints.

> I dont know if there are any law's here in the UK ? Stef.......

Maybe you should find out.

Lee

Lee Bell wrote:
> <morgand@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote
>
> >> Never see anybody driving above the posted speed limit? Ever seen
> >> anybody driving below the posted speed limit? Do you doubt that each
> >> chose a limit they consider safe? Do you doubt that, sometimes, both
> >> the speeder and the slower driver, are both safe?
>
> > Seen loads of accidents, dont remember seeing any caused by drivers or
> > divers from being within their respective limits.
>
> Really? You're not paying much attention.

morg, it ain't often that Lee's on the right side of an argument,
but I always give credit when credit is due. He IS, this time,
and YOU are ... blissfully WRONG.

>
> >> That which is illegal, may still be safe.
> >
> > For that individual in that space and time . . .

Even if it's "foreign" to you, morg, you should look at the FACTS
behind the national speed limit of 55 mph implemented in 1974 because
of the oil crisis, and remained for over 20 years, until the FARCE
was finally repealed by congress in the mid 1990s.

The statistics compiled since were astounding to people like you.
Raising the limit from 55 to 70 actually REDUCED the national
fatality rate and the rates in many states. Why, because
people on the ATL interstate and the FLA turnpike were already
driving 85 and 90 mph when the limit was 55.

I have more speeding tickets at over 90 mph, exceeding the
"legal" limit by over 25 mph, when I deemed it "as safe as
45 mph in an average motor vehical on an average road.

I have NEVER had an accident in over 40 years of driving, that
was MY fault or due to speed. I was hit from the rear while
STOPPED at a traffic light, in Washington D.C., by the car
behind. That was the only MOVING accident ... in 1970ish
until 1994.

On a four-lane non-interstate highway, a teenage punk was trying
to show off his jealopy agaisnt my BMW 325 si. We were going
along 80ish at the 45 mph zone <G> until I saw the traffic
light turn YELLOW. Not one to run yellow or red lights,
especially speeding, I had no trouble stopping the car at the
light.

Meanwhile, I saw this punk right behind me, at a speed that was
sure to rear-end my car, I move forward a bit AFTER I stopped.
To no avail. His car hit the rear of my BMW, totally smashed
the entire front of his vehicle, and was charged in the accident.
My BMW bumper showed a little scratch. I used the over $1,000
paid for by his insurance copy to install an $800 CD player,
and kept the rest.

Oh, I almost forgot. I was in a NEAR accident when I was going
over 110 mph (when most of the traffic was over 90 mph) on I-15
going from LA to Las Vegas. I was CLOSELY followed by two
other cars at the same speed. Suddenly I saw stopped traffic
in front, with cars off the road. It was not a BMW or Mb SL
that I could stop on a dime at that speed, but a cheap rental
car. And if I did stop as in hitting the brake hard,
I would have been hit by the two cars BEHIND. A rare incident
of "can't go and can't stop". But I managed to stop JUST
missing the two cars on the two sides, make some twisting slow
turns at clear spots, and went on the rest of the way.

What were you saying, morg? 40+ years, accident free.
Plenty of high speed tickets to show. The LAST one I got in
Georgia was last year, costing me $687 for the speeding ticket.

If those bloody bastards only issue FINES and not bloody POINTS
to try to take my license away, I would be driving over 100 mph
on Interstates most of the time. Remember, "time is the essence".

I have ALREDY lived much longer than most folks my age because of
the TIME I saved from my DRIVING. I still average 70 mph
going the 800 miles from my home to Ft. Lauderdale, including stop
for gas and food.
>
>
> >> That which is legal, may not be.
> >
> > Like ?..........

The legally blind drivers in Florida, driving legally within legal
speed limits while hitting and killing innocent pedestrians?

< snip >
> > If you dont break the law you dont get into trouble...
>
> > I dont know if there are any law's here in the UK ? Stef.......
>
> Maybe you should find out.
>
> Lee

Whatever the law is, it applies to the "average", driving an "average"
car, with "average" skill; or "sub-average" diver, with "sub-average"
diving skills, needing at least an "average" diver as a baby-sitting
buddy.

For ANY diver or driver, the ONLY rule for safe DIVING or DRIVING is,

"Know YOUR limit (and limitations) and DIVE <or drive> WITHIN it".

You could add "limitations of driving equipments" for DRIVING.
My tires are rated to hold "indefinitely" <G> at 130 mph.
Not many tires <or as we say here, "tars", are so rated.

-- da speeding Feeesh.

morgand@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote in news:RPOdnerpRZz3wWrfRVnysw@pipex.net:


> I dont know if there are any law's here in the UK ? Stef.......
>
HSE (Health and Safety Executive, for our overseas friends)
http://www.hse.gov.uk/diving/
have a huge say... as a government agency they can prosecute us (the
divers) if we are acting in a professional capacity, or even suspected of
operating in a professional capacity, and fail to meet our duty of care to
fellow divers, snorkellers, swimmers, surfers etc.

.... before anybody picks on the word 'professional'...

.... this can affect any diver in the UK, risk management has become a way
of life whether we like it or not.


--
Stef the pragmatist

Hope for the best
Plan for the worst

Sometimes the glass is half-full; most of the time I’m waiting for a
refill.

Thus spake morgand@cix.compulink.co.uk :

>In article <S1IJe.2464$RZ2.714@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
>leebell@ix.netcom.com (Lee Bell) wrote:
>
>>
>> Never see anybody driving above the posted speed limit? Ever seen
>> anybody driving below the posted speed limit? Do you doubt that each
>> chose a limit they consider safe? Do you doubt that, sometimes, both
>> the speeder and the slower driver, are both safe?
>
>Seen loads of accidents, dont remember seeing any caused by drivers or
>divers from being within their respective limits.
>There is always the driver that will drive at 40mph on a motorway where
>the "limit" is 70.......i guess they could be judged to be driving
>dangerously even though inside the limit.......
>There are always one off's.....

But there are some areas where the posted lower limit is 45. So
driving 40 would be illegal.

>
>> Legal and safe are not the same.
>
>Thats why some drivers drive slower than the Limit.

but are they still driving safely? Are they truly competent drivers
or just fearful of driving any faster? Taking a cheap shot here, but
perhaps you should visit Florida. Slow and dangerous drivers.

Blue hair or no hair.


>
>> That which is illegal, may still be
>> safe.
>
>For that individual in that space and time but laws and limits (laws
>aside) are made to protect the majority.
>
>
>> That which is legal, may not be.
>
>Like ?..........
>If you dont break the law you dont get into trouble...

Legal trouble. Someone going 40 could be rearended by someone going
60 (and still below the posted limit). Yes, the person behind will be
at fault, but the person driving 40 will have contributed by driving
unsafely slow.

>
>> So far, at least in the States,
>> recreational diving is, for the most part, free of legal constraints.
>
>I dont know if there are any law's here in the UK ? Stef.......
>
>Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK
>Take out the "goes diving" bit....
>Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk

--
dillon

Linux, it's not just an OS, it's a way
of life.

And a damn fine one, at that.

morgand@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:


>>How fast is the safe driving limit?
>
>
> Where......? Depends on the surrounding's and the legislation in force.

Other than the risk of getting a ticket, safe driving speed isn't at all dependent on
legislated speed limits. Ideally, the speed limit is based on what has been
arbitrarily decided to be an acceptable trade off between safety and getting there
quickly. Changing the limit doesn't magically change the risk of driving at the old
limit.

The "rules" on ppO2 are somewhat like the legislated speed limit, but less arbitrary.
Sticking to a ppO2 of 1.4 will result in most divers being very safe on most dives.
It's not an absolute guarantee, but it's a lot better than what you get with a speed
limit. If you want more bottom time you can use a higher ppO2, but the risk of OxTox
will increase. Just as road conditions and the driver will affect the risk related to
any given speed, the conditions of the dive and the diver will affect the risk of any
(reasonable) ppO2.

--
Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

In article <4dLJe.2610$Je.569@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.ne t>,
leebell@ix.netcom.com (Lee Bell) wrote:

>
> > Seen loads of accidents, dont remember seeing any caused by drivers or
> > divers from being within their respective limits.
>
> Really? You're not paying much attention.

MMMMmmmmmm........i can see I'm losing this one.......


> >> That which is illegal, may still be safe.
> >
> > For that individual in that space and time . . .
>
> That's the point. Remember, this discussion is about what is a safe
> limit for a single diver, on a single dive, in a single set of
> circumstances. The entire point is that there is no one safe limit for
> all divers for all dives, or even for one diver for all dives. PPO2 is
> a measurement and recommendations are only a starting point.

Ok Lee, i appreciate, grasp, understand what you are saying and may agree
with you, but i think that originally (seems like a long time ago now) i
wanted to know what the safe limit was for 32% @ 1.4 pp02, what i really
wanted was for you to tell me that it is 111ft, i think i was thinking
that if a person was just qualified/certified to dive on Nitrox and asked
the instructor what his safe limit was, i could'nt see the instructor
saying....."it depends....you'll have to find your own limit"


Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK
Take out the "goes diving" bit....
Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk

morgand@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote in news:aZednXLCo_cs_WXfRVnyuA@pipex.net:


>
> I accept what you say with regard to HSE, but is there any definitive
> legislation.
>
> Lee appeared to imply that in the US there WAS/IS legislation.

Sorry Dave, I missed your point

Not that I know of... in theory you could turn up at a dive shop, buy the
kit then go jump in a puddle like Dorothea/Stoney or worse straight into
the oggin. Most reputable shops won't sell you the kit unless you can
prove your cert level though.

--
Stef the pragmatist

Hope for the best
Plan for the worst

Sometimes the glass is half-full; most of the time I’m waiting for a
refill.

In article <Xns96AD5E814EC4Fekbedcad@212.23.3.119>,
scuba@mostly-diving.REMOVE.co.uk (Stef) wrote:

> orry Dave, I missed your point

I was just asking if there was any actual legislation about diving in this
country, but you have commented below.

> Not that I know of... in theory you could turn up at a dive shop, buy
> the kit then go jump in a puddle like Dorothea/Stoney or worse straight
> into the oggin. Most reputable shops won't sell you the kit unless you
> can prove your cert level though.

I know that dive shops wont fill the bottles unless they know you are
certified (jesus i should have been certified years ago)
But as for wont sell you kit, never heard of that.

Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK
Take out the "goes diving" bit....
Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk

morgand@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote in
news:IcqdnW-oP7BhGWXfRVnytA@pipex.net:

> In article <Xns96AD6DF676EA7ekbedcad@212.23.3.119>,
> scuba@mostly-diving.REMOVE.co.uk (Stef) wrote:
>

>
> Times change eh.....even in my short span of diving, i got my open
> water cert at Stoney, bought a dry suit with my wife and off we went
> diving, never did a dry suit course.......never had a problem.
> Talking of dry suits, must collect our suits from Stoney, new neck
> seals fitted while we were on holiday.
>

If you fancy a dip drop me a line... I'm there most weekends with OW
students and am currently organising some weekday trips with our DM
trainees.

> All this talk about nitrox or not helps me to understand the whole
> thing more, i like to understand why we do things the way we do, why
> some do them and why some dont......there is allways more than one way
> to skin a cat, i just think people are entitled to their opinions
> and just because i disagree with them does'nt make them wrong or me
> right.
> We should all be more tolerant and prepared to see the others point of
> view.
> Diving is a wonderful pastime and both me and my wife love it, we have
> met some great folk around the world and been to and seen countries
> well of the beaten track, we never book package holidays anymore.
> I look forward to our next trip.....
>
> take care.

I'll drink to that.
Cheers <clink>


--
Stef the pragmatist

Hope for the best
Plan for the worst

Sometimes the glass is half-full; most of the time I’m waiting for a
refill.

In article <Xns96AD7739A80EEekbedcad@212.23.3.119>,
scuba@mostly-diving.REMOVE.co.uk (Stef) wrote:

> I'll drink to that.

Now there's a topic that might generate some interesting views......

Perhaps a new heading is called for..........so.....mines a pint whats
yours..... ;^)

Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK
Take out the "goes diving" bit....
Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk