Mixing regs / pony regs

Hi peeps
I'm looking at getting a pony (no comments on whether thats a good idea or
not please!), but want the regs and things to be usable on a main tank or as
a twinset in the future. A lot of the packages come with cheap regs, and
i'm not really sure about the quality of those - I was thinking of getting
stuff to match what I already have on my main cylinder (Oceanic DX4 / Delta
3 / Alpha 7 Octo), and going for the same octo, and a first stage.
The problem is that Oceanic don't do a cheap first stage - not that I can
find anyway, no one seems to sell the Oceanic 1st's separately. My idea
behind getting matching stuff is that firstly, if I ever have a problem with
my main cylinder regs, I can easily swap them over. It also means that
servicing on them all is the same. I am going to the dive show so will look
for the Oceanic 1st stages there, see if I have any luck - ideally i'd like
to know exactly what i'm getting before I go though.
If I can't get an Oceanic 1st stage, I was looking at the Apeks DS4 - I
thought i'd get the 4 port rather than the 1 port so that I can upgrade in
future. Question is, how well do reg types like to be mixed, and will it
cause me any problems? Will an Oceanic reg on an Apeks first stage be OK?
I know there are issues with the intermediate pressure if they don't match
(no idea if these do or not), but are there any other considerations? Or
should I go for either all Oceanic or all Apeks?
If I go for the Alpha 7 reg, DS4 1st stage, and 3l pony cylinder, thats
around £205, which is what most kits cost. However, on top of that i'd need
some sort of clamp, and i'd get a contents gauge too, bringing it up to
around £260 for the lot.

I could go for the absolute cheapest reg, the ScubaproMK2 / R190, which is
what a lot of pony kits are supplied with, and I could get that for £167,
and then with clamp and contents gauge probably around £222.

Any thoughts? What can I mix and what can't I? Will I benefit from having
main reg and pony reg matching to be worth the extra?

David

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:31:13 +0100, "David Walker"
<wbsdavenews@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Hi peeps
>I'm looking at getting a pony (no comments on whether thats a good idea or
>not please!), but want the regs and things to be usable on a main tank or as
>a twinset in the future. A lot of the packages come with cheap regs, and
>i'm not really sure about the quality of those - I was thinking of getting
>stuff to match what I already have on my main cylinder (Oceanic DX4 / Delta
>3 / Alpha 7 Octo), and going for the same octo, and a first stage.
>The problem is that Oceanic don't do a cheap first stage - not that I can
>find anyway, no one seems to sell the Oceanic 1st's separately. My idea
>behind getting matching stuff is that firstly, if I ever have a problem with
>my main cylinder regs, I can easily swap them over. It also means that
>servicing on them all is the same. I am going to the dive show so will look
>for the Oceanic 1st stages there, see if I have any luck - ideally i'd like
>to know exactly what i'm getting before I go though.
>If I can't get an Oceanic 1st stage, I was looking at the Apeks DS4 - I
>thought i'd get the 4 port rather than the 1 port so that I can upgrade in
>future. Question is, how well do reg types like to be mixed, and will it
>cause me any problems? Will an Oceanic reg on an Apeks first stage be OK?
>I know there are issues with the intermediate pressure if they don't match
>(no idea if these do or not), but are there any other considerations? Or
>should I go for either all Oceanic or all Apeks?
>If I go for the Alpha 7 reg, DS4 1st stage, and 3l pony cylinder, thats
>around £205, which is what most kits cost. However, on top of that i'd need
>some sort of clamp, and i'd get a contents gauge too, bringing it up to
>around £260 for the lot.
>
>I could go for the absolute cheapest reg, the ScubaproMK2 / R190, which is
>what a lot of pony kits are supplied with, and I could get that for £167,
>and then with clamp and contents gauge probably around £222.
>
>Any thoughts? What can I mix and what can't I? Will I benefit from having
>main reg and pony reg matching to be worth the extra?
>

Lots of questions there - firstly your logic is right of buying stuff
you can reuse is right in that the Apeks DS1 is a poor choice and
generally avoiding the cheap end of the market. Personally I would go
either all Oceanics or all Apeks because you will tend to get a better
deal at the dive show buying a 1st and 2nd stage as a package but
there should not be a problem mixing these two makes.

When you are costing it all remember the packages sometimes don't
include a pressure gauge because you don't have to have one on a pony
and those that do normally have a button gauge which I don't like
because in my experience they are very unreliable. Also remember the
packages either include no fixing or a bag (yuck!)

I would also suggest you buy a pony that is nitrox compatible so that
when you go to a twin set you can use it as a stage. If you buy a non
compatible one you will have to replace or change the internals of the
valve

The only other thing is how to carry it, you might want to consider
side slinging it as the kit of this is a lot cheaper than a bracket

HTH



Pete
diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk

David Walker wrote:

> Yeah I did think that, but can't seem to find a good combo thats cheap.
> Seems like Apeks make cheap first stages, and Oceanic make cheap Octo's. I
> suppose its just a case of see whats around, and make some sort of decision.
> Knowing that I can mix them no problem should be helpful though if I do
> decide to do that.

There's no real reason that you shouldn't use an Apeks 1st stage and an
Oceanic octo, except that it'll probably void the warranty on both.
IIRC they both work on the same interstage pressure.

> Would the best idea be to just buy a nitrox pony now, use it with air (which
> unfortunately isn't "clean" air from our club compressor), and then when I
> get round to doing nitrox if I still want to use it I just need to have it
> O2 cleaned? That sound about right?

Nope. If you're going to use the kit on dirty air, there's no point
paying over the top for O2 clean stuff. Get a non-O2 clean tank and
normal reg. When you're ready to switch to nitrox, have the tank O2
cleaned and the reg put thru O2 service. If you were to buy O2 clean
stuff and then use it on dirty air it'd need cleaning just the same.

> I think I would back mount it - if I had to have it dangling it'd just annoy
> me and i'd end up not using it, defeating the point in having one. Having a
> reel for a DSMB caused enough problems today dangling below me when I tried
> to get through the window of the Stanegarth in Stoney... I gave up trying
> and waited outside!
>

If you back mount it, you're not going to be able to remove it if you do
want to squeeze thru a tight spot. With it slung as a stage, you can
just unclip it.If you want to get into a rib you can remove it in water
and hand it over too. Plus you can bungee the hose to the pony, so
you don't have 3 hoses coming over on your right. That means that you're
less likely to breath from the wrong reg by mistake.

Plus it'll mean that by the time you really do want to do accelerated
deco, you'll be used to it and going from a 3L to a 7L won't be a
problem.

- Keith

> There's no real reason that you shouldn't use an Apeks 1st stage and an
> Oceanic octo, except that it'll probably void the warranty on both.
> IIRC they both work on the same interstage pressure.

Oh - I quite like the Oceanic warranty because you get free parts for the
service as long as you do it every year.

> > Would the best idea be to just buy a nitrox pony now, use it with air
(which
> > unfortunately isn't "clean" air from our club compressor), and then when
I
> > get round to doing nitrox if I still want to use it I just need to have
it
> > O2 cleaned? That sound about right?
>
> Nope. If you're going to use the kit on dirty air, there's no point
> paying over the top for O2 clean stuff. Get a non-O2 clean tank and
> normal reg. When you're ready to switch to nitrox, have the tank O2
> cleaned and the reg put thru O2 service. If you were to buy O2 clean
> stuff and then use it on dirty air it'd need cleaning just the same.

Ah - this was the bit I wasn't sure about. I seem to remember reading
something not long ago about oxygen compatible and oxygen clean not being
the same thing. If it is to be used for nitrox, am I right in assuming it
needs different o-rings and things to a normal cylinder? I was under the
impression that an O2 clean was effectively just "rinse it out with O2"?
I'll go and do some reading up of that, but I do vaguely remember some
confusion about the terms used (I think it was someone bought a cylinder for
nitrox, which was o2 clean, but couldn't be filled because it wasn't o2
serviced or something... i'll have to dig it out).
Since its likely to be after christmas when I do nitrox (depending on course
availability) I don't have a particular problem with paying for an o2 clean
/ o2 service in 3 or 6 months, as long as it doesn't require a whole new
valve and things put in.


> If you back mount it, you're not going to be able to remove it if you do
> want to squeeze thru a tight spot. With it slung as a stage, you can
> just unclip it.If you want to get into a rib you can remove it in water
> and hand it over too. Plus you can bungee the hose to the pony, so
> you don't have 3 hoses coming over on your right. That means that you're
> less likely to breath from the wrong reg by mistake.

I'm still not convinced - sorry! I just don't think i'd like something
hanging there all the time, and like I say i'd just end up not using it.
I'll be using it a lot when i'm teaching in Stoney, so having it hanging
isn't really ideal under those circumstances. On other dives I do it might
be OK hanging, but then i'd already have a clips and things so would
probably just leave it on my back.

For reg positioning, I have main reg on my right, and octopus on the left so
that its oriented better for my buddy. I'd put the pony reg on the right
too, clipped to a d-ring or tied on somewhere so its out of the way but
still easy to get to and get out quickly. Even though i'm wanting to get
the same sort of reg for the pony, I will be trying to get one which looks
physically different - at the minute I have a small black main reg, and a
larger yellow octopus - i'd probably end up getting the larger black reg for
the pony. However, it depends where I get it from. There are two i'm
looking at at the minute which are cheap, but I wouldn't get the choice of
colours - I can have it as it is, or not at all.

> Plus it'll mean that by the time you really do want to do accelerated
> deco, you'll be used to it and going from a 3L to a 7L won't be a
> problem.

Can't see me doing that really - not with anything clever like side-slung
things anyway. A twinset is something I would use if I got one, and may do
in a few years, but at the minute the type of diving I mostly do doesn't
justify a twinset, and it really is overkill - I just don't need that volume
of gas. Even if I did have one, no one else in my main club uses twins
except in Egypt or the odd UK dive, so me having one doesn't really help.
I really can't see me having it mounted anything other than on the main tank
on my back. I understand some of the things in favour of doing so, but it
wouldn't be best for the diving i'm mostly doing.

David

> Ah - this was the bit I wasn't sure about. I seem to
> remember reading something not long ago about oxygen
> compatible and oxygen clean not being the same thing. If it
> is to be used for nitrox, am I right in assuming it needs
> different o-rings and things to a normal cylinder? I was
> under the impression that an O2 clean was effectively just
> "rinse it out with O2"?

Official line:
-------------

Oxygen Service is a description of an item which is both Oxygen Compatible
and Oxygen Clean

Oxygen Compatible means that the parts are suitable for use with oxygen (and
are not going to explode/burst into flames/give off toxic fumes or similar
nasties)

Oxygen Clean means that the item has had contaminants removed (eg
hydrocarbon residue, grit, metal filings) so that they cannot react with
oxygen. This usually involves some sort of solvent.

Hence an item which is oxygen compatible still needs to be oxygen cleaned
before it can be used with oxygen. Equally, an oxygen clean item may not be
compatible for use with oxygen.

Iain

> Oxygen Compatible means that the parts are suitable for use with oxygen
(and
> are not going to explode/burst into flames/give off toxic fumes or similar
> nasties)
>
> Oxygen Clean means that the item has had contaminants removed (eg
> hydrocarbon residue, grit, metal filings) so that they cannot react with
> oxygen. This usually involves some sort of solvent.

Sounds a bit silly really - surely if you're going to clean something with
the idea of putting oxygen in (ie oxygen clean), you should make sure the
rest of the cylinder is OK to take oxygen (ie oxygen compatible) otherwise
theres no point in doing it.
However, going on that I just want oxygen compatible for the moment, and
then get it oxygen cleaned later.

Thanks

David

> > Oxygen Compatible means that the parts are suitable for use
> > with oxygen (and are not going to explode/burst into
> >flames/give off toxic fumes or similar nasties)
> >
> > Oxygen Clean means that the item has had contaminants
> > removed (eg hydrocarbon residue, grit, metal filings) so
> > that they cannot react with oxygen. This usually involves
> > some sort of solvent.
>
> Sounds a bit silly really - surely if you're going to clean
> something with the idea of putting oxygen in (ie oxygen
> clean), you should make sure the rest of the cylinder is OK
> to take oxygen (ie oxygen compatible) otherwise
> theres no point in doing it.

Yes, of course. The point is that something that is compatible may not be
suitable for oxygen service until it is clean. While you could O2 clean
something, as you say, it would be rather futile if it were not already
compatible!

> However, going on that I just want oxygen compatible for the
> moment, and then get it oxygen cleaned later.

Correct. Or, at least, ensure that it is possible to make the item O2
compatible at a later date.

Iain

"David Walker" <wbsdavenews@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bne911$7de$1@wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk...
>but I tend to
>get headaches most of the time after I come out of the water, so i'm
>hoping
>that may help.

David,

No-one picked up on this bit so I will. This is probably CO2 retention
caused by a poor breathing pattern - normally 'skip breathing'. This is
where you hold your breath until you really feel the need to breathe to try
& make your gas last longer.
I've been guilty of it in the past, usually early in the season, & it would
give me a splitting headache which could last the rest of the day.
Cure - breathe evenly & reasonably deeply. If that means you consume too
much gas have a look in the archives for threads on air consumption. In
short it generally improves with fitness, experience & practice.
Alternatively cut straight to the chase, get a yellow box & breathe as much
& as frequently as you need.

BTW don't discount slinging the pony like a stage. If set up properly (and
that's going to depend largely on the sort of BC your using) you won't even
notice it. If I can swim in & out of wrecks without really thinking about 2
x 7l allys hanging off one side I'm sure you could get used to a 3l in no
time at all.

Lee

> >but I tend to
> >get headaches most of the time after I come out of the water, so i'm
> >hoping
> >that may help.

> No-one picked up on this bit so I will. This is probably CO2 retention
> caused by a poor breathing pattern - normally 'skip breathing'. This is
> where you hold your breath until you really feel the need to breathe to
try
> & make your gas last longer.

Ahhh - yeah I do tend to breathe funny (I know I do, I know I should do it
properly, I'll have to just keep doing it and hope it starts to go right on
its own...).

> I've been guilty of it in the past, usually early in the season, & it
would
> give me a splitting headache which could last the rest of the day.

Mine is only a very mild headache, but it is after every dive and it
definately sounds about right.

> Cure - breathe evenly & reasonably deeply. If that means you consume too
> much gas have a look in the archives for threads on air consumption. In
> short it generally improves with fitness, experience & practice.

Hmmm - more squash next week then! Experience and practice i'm working
on...

> Alternatively cut straight to the chase, get a yellow box & breathe as
much
> & as frequently as you need.

Since I can barely afford a pony reg, I can't see that hapenning very
soon...

> BTW don't discount slinging the pony like a stage. If set up properly (and
> that's going to depend largely on the sort of BC your using) you won't
even
> notice it. If I can swim in & out of wrecks without really thinking about
2
> x 7l allys hanging off one side I'm sure you could get used to a 3l in no
> time at all.

I suppose - i'm still a little concerned that it would get in the way of
teaching, particularly things like AAS, CBL, recovering from inversions in a
drysuit, and tows and AV on the surface. I can only try it though -
depending on where and when I buy, and how much they are, I may not get the
bracket immediately and then try both back-mounted and side slung (I can
improvise something to hold them there while i'm playing in the pool -
probably a big bit of string!)

David

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:13:09 +0100, "Iain Smith"
<iainmsmith@btinternet.com> wrote:

>> However, going on that I just want oxygen compatible for the
>> moment, and then get it oxygen cleaned later.
>
>Correct. Or, at least, ensure that it is possible to make the item O2
>compatible at a later date.

And if you refer back to my original suggestion I did specifically say
you should get Nitrox compatible fro exactly that reason. I had a
bottle cleaned early this year and it was the first time that one had
been cleaned - it cost me an extra £25 because the valve could not be
cleaned. If I had paid an extra £10 when I had first bought it I would
be quids in



Pete
diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk