Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"Keith Lawrence" wrote

> > I found the same when I bought my Vyper earlier in the
> > year - every single shop sold it for £228, not a penny
> > more, not a penny less! After talking to someone in one
> > of the shops though, apparently that is the price they are
> > told they had to sell it at by Suunto...
>
> It's known a price fixing, also illegal.

Are you sure? I'm not familiar enough with UK law to know, but on this side
of the pond, I think price fixing involves two or more unrelated competitors
agreeing to a set price rather than an agreement between the manufacturer
and his retailers. Halcyon has been what they call a "Fair Trade Company"
for as long as I can remember and so has Scuba Pro. This kind of think
tends to depend on the product being in demand sufficietly for consumers to
but it even at a higher than normal price rather than purchase an
alternative product.

> Welcome to the dive industry. Don't blame your LDS either, it's not their
> fault and they are ordinary people trying to make a living just like the
> rest of us. They are caught up in this just as much as we are. There are
> some enlightened ones around who will ignore these illegal "rules" for
> divers that they know and they deserve all of the support and business
that
> it puts their way.

It's as much their fault as anybody's. They accept the fixing and pass the
unfair price on to their customers for the same profit motive the
manufacturer has.

Lee

> > It's known a price fixing, also illegal.
>
> Are you sure? I'm not familiar enough with UK law to know, but on this
side
> of the pond, I think price fixing involves two or more unrelated
competitors
> agreeing to a set price rather than an agreement between the manufacturer
> and his retailers. Halcyon has been what they call a "Fair Trade Company"
> for as long as I can remember and so has Scuba Pro. This kind of think
> tends to depend on the product being in demand sufficietly for consumers
to
> but it even at a higher than normal price rather than purchase an
> alternative product.

You're right in that price fixing often refers to agreements between
manufacturers to keep their prices artificially high, above the competitive
market price. It can also apply to individual manufacturers though,
particularly with more specialist equipment such as diving kit. They can
tell the shops to sell it at whatever price the manufacturer wants - of
course that will include a margin for the shop, but the reason they do it is
because if one shop drops its price, others will want to as well. In theory
the shops shouldn't mind, because they have their profit margin protected.
In practice, shops compete on being able to supply cheaper than their
competitors, which means that the larger places which buy in bulk would be
making a bigger margin, but really they'd be better off reducing the price,
and selling more. Basically, this sort of price fixing means the
manufacturer maintains complete control over their products, giving them
that bit extra power to dictate what happens.


> > Welcome to the dive industry. Don't blame your LDS either, it's not
their
> > fault and they are ordinary people trying to make a living just like the
> > rest of us. They are caught up in this just as much as we are. There are
> > some enlightened ones around who will ignore these illegal "rules" for
> > divers that they know and they deserve all of the support and business
> that
> > it puts their way.
>
> It's as much their fault as anybody's. They accept the fixing and pass
the
> unfair price on to their customers for the same profit motive the
> manufacturer has.

The dive shops don't really have much of a choice - they can either accept
the terms, and sell at the fixed price, or reject all products from that
manufacturer. If that happens to be a company who'se products are popular,
like Suunto's are, then that would be a big disadvantage for the dive shop.
If it was a smaller company who aren't very well known anyway, then not
stocking their products makes little difference to the shop, and they can
say no.

Quite why the manufacturers are allowed to get away with it is beyond me,
but it just demonstrates that the bodies which are supposed to protect the
consumer from this sort of activity - Trading Standards, the EU Competition
Commission, etc - just don't have the necessary power or resources to deal
with it. Look at how long they have worked to get the hugely fixed car
market to open up to market forces, and that is still just beginning to take
effect. In fact, look at the most powerful and open cartel in the world -
Opec! Everyone knows about it, they work openly, and they fix prices across
almost every oil producer on the planet, yet nothing has been done to stop
it. For a small market like the diving industry there's little reason for
them to spend their time sorting it out, there's much bigger markets to fix
first - we'll be stuck with this for a long time yet!

David

"David Walker" wrote

> > It's as much their fault as anybody's. They accept the fixing and pass
> > the unfair price on to their customers for the same profit motive the
> > manufacturer has.
>
> The dive shops don't really have much of a choice - they can either accept
> the terms, and sell at the fixed price, or reject all products from that
> manufacturer. If that happens to be a company who'se products are
popular,
> like Suunto's are, then that would be a big disadvantage for the dive
shop.
> If it was a smaller company who aren't very well known anyway, then not
> stocking their products makes little difference to the shop, and they can
> say no.

They have the same choice everybody else does, chose somebody else's
product. Suunto's are popular and, worse, recommended by GUE/DIR. They've
got a guaranteed market which is being told that doing it right is the only
way, no matter what the price. They're a great bottom timer and depth
guage, but, personally, I think their operation as a notrox computer pretty
much stinks.

Lee

"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message
They're a great bottom timer and depth
> guage, but, personally, I think their operation as a notrox computer pretty
> much stinks.
>
> Lee

Typo or Freudian slip Lee?


DaveA



--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

> They have the same choice everybody else does, chose somebody else's
> product. Suunto's are popular and, worse, recommended by GUE/DIR.
They've
> got a guaranteed market which is being told that doing it right is the
only
> way, no matter what the price. They're a great bottom timer and depth
> guage, but, personally, I think their operation as a notrox computer
pretty
> much stinks.

Point is, if a dive shop knows people want Suunto computers, then they will
want to stock Suunto computers, even if that means agreeing to restrictive
terms. If they don't stock them, the end user who wants a Suunto computer
goes to another dive shop for that, and most likely while they are there
will buy other things too.

David

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:51:24 GMT, "Lee Bell"
<leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote:

>> It's known a price fixing, also illegal.
>
>Are you sure? I'm not familiar enough with UK law to know, but on this side
>of the pond, I think price fixing involves two or more unrelated competitors
>agreeing to a set price rather than an agreement between the manufacturer
>and his retailers. Halcyon has been what they call a "Fair Trade Company"
>for as long as I can remember and so has Scuba Pro. This kind of think
>tends to depend on the product being in demand sufficietly for consumers to
>but it even at a higher than normal price rather than purchase an
>alternative product.

That's illegal in Europe as well - a major toy manufacturer and a
number of retailers were fined huge amounts recently for doing exactly
this. Bottom line is you can not do anything legally to stop
competition except for certain controlled markets such as pharmacies.

The problem is it is very difficult to prove....



Pete
diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk

Keith Lawrence wrote:

> Yup, many times. The facts are quite simple - this "rule" has no backing or
> requirement whatsoever in law. It's not the dive shops fault either. They
> are cartel rules imposed by the importers/manufacturers to protect their
> market and any shops breaking those rules see their supplies of stock and
> parts cut off. Yes it is illegal, no there doesn't seem to be anything that
> anybody can do about it.

It's not illegal at all. If you think it is I have several letters
from the Office of Fair Trading which describe why it isn't.

- Keith

> > Yup, many times. The facts are quite simple - this "rule" has no backing
or
> > requirement whatsoever in law. It's not the dive shops fault either.
They
> > are cartel rules imposed by the importers/manufacturers to protect their
> > market and any shops breaking those rules see their supplies of stock
and
> > parts cut off. Yes it is illegal, no there doesn't seem to be anything
that
> > anybody can do about it.
>
> It's not illegal at all. If you think it is I have several letters
> from the Office of Fair Trading which describe why it isn't.

.... which is why? It is against consumer interests, the sort of behaviour
which they are supposed to prevent. Makes the OFT and Competition
Commission even more pointless than I thought.

David

David Walker <wbsdavenews@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Yup, many times. The facts are quite simple - this "rule" has no
>>> backing or requirement whatsoever in law. It's not the dive shops
>>> fault either. They are cartel rules imposed by the
>>> importers/manufacturers to protect their market and any shops
>>> breaking those rules see their supplies of stock and parts cut off.
>>> Yes it is illegal, no there doesn't seem to be anything that
>>> anybody can do about it.
>>
>> It's not illegal at all. If you think it is I have several letters
>> from the Office of Fair Trading which describe why it isn't.
>
> ... which is why? It is against consumer interests, the sort of
> behaviour which they are supposed to prevent. Makes the OFT and
> Competition Commission even more pointless than I thought.

That about sums it up. The OFT does not enforce fair trading
it enforces the laws on fair trading. If there isn't a specific
law there is nothing to enforce.

Pointless? Agreed. Moral? Dubious. Fair trade? Your kidding.
Illegal? Sorry, No.

nigelH

> That about sums it up. The OFT does not enforce fair trading
> it enforces the laws on fair trading. If there isn't a specific
> law there is nothing to enforce.

Useful!
"Yes, we enforce all the laws on fair trading and consumer protection"...
"Ah good, so you'll do something about it then?"...
"Ermmm, no, sorry - there isn't a law for us to enforce, but if there was,
we would!"

> Pointless? Agreed. Moral? Dubious. Fair trade? Your kidding.
> Illegal? Sorry, No.

Life's not fair, but we'll survive! :o)

David


* By the way, sort of on the same point, if anyone has any plans /
measurements for making a pony clamp, they'd be much appreciated. I've
decided £40+ for two bits of bent steel seems a bit excessive, so i'm trying
to get my dad to make me one. Only problem is he's 200 miles away, and he
doesn't have any cylinders to work from, and the pictures of the available
ones don't give much help in the way of actually making something that
works. Thanks muchly!
* Also thought about getting a home-made torch done, but thought that was a
bit adventurous!