More torches (sorry, gone cheaper again...)

Hey again peoples!

On my intrepid search for a torch, I think i've come full circle and now i'm
back at the cheaper end of the market.
The main problem i'm having is knowing what sort of power I need - i've only
ever used a weeny little torch before, and that was early evening at 6m, and
another time at 20m or so during the day when it was just used for peering
into / under things. I'm going to be going deeper and doing night dives
though, so need something of my own and with a little more umph to it I
think - question is, how much? I won't be doing anything over 35m really,
and night dives will be in both clear (Red Sea) water and around the UK,
which I imagine is the darkest its going to get.
Since I won't have the chance to test any of these before i buy, I am
relying heavily on recommendations and specs, and reviews in magazines.

To give you some idea of what i'm looking for, I see the following as
important factors:

Ideally less than £200, will pay up to £250 for a good torch
Would prefer umbilical, but now i think thats just too expensive
Over an hour burn time (including low power modes if it has them)
Ideally max 4 hour charge time, which can be done in any state of discharge
Light enough to take abroad without huge excess baggage charges (max
~1.5-2kg?)
Be able to charge externally a la Kowalski, Suunto, FaMi (,others?) - this
is probably the most limiting factor for me, but I really see this as
important
Higher colour temperature the better
No idea what power I need - would 20W do, or should I be aiming for 35W or
50W?
Preferably multiple power settings.


From that, i've found myself looking at the following:

Kowalski 620 (and Speed) - short burn times though, and normal 620 long
charge time, speed expensive!
Suunto 209 / Finn Light 90 - variable power settings, and seems good
FaMi Superstar - expensive, highly adjustable
FaMi 2001 50W Xenon - expensive, but upgradeable to HID, umbilical, etc, one
power setting
FaMi 2002 Umbilical - expensive, umbilical, seems good

I really don't know what to go for though - i'm going off the Kowalski 620
because of the short burn time and long recharge, and for the 620 Speed's
price I could get something else with much longer burn time and just as
bright (I think). The Suunto seems good, second cheapest there at £199,
80min burn time, small, but I can't find anything to say how long it takes
to charge. The FaMi 2002 umbilical appeals because of being umbilical, and
isn't much more than the Kowalski 620 Speed for many of the same good
features, and longer burn times. All of these are 20W Xenon.
If I need something brighter, the other two FaMi ones seems to be best
options. Both £240, both handheld, same basic features, but the 2001 is
upgradeable to new heads, or to umbilical, but the Superstar is adjustable
from 50-100mins burn time, and LEDs to last another 20 hours or so. The
2001 can be used with a 30W bulb though and get 90 mins burn time, which
should be more than enough.

So, i'd be inclined to go with either:
The Suunto 209, which is a 20W £199 torch with 80min burn time on full
power;
The FaMi 2001, which is an upgradeable 50W £240 torch with 55min(90min with
30W bulb) burn time;
The FaMi 2002, which is an umbilical 20W £240 torch with 66min burn time.

Which of these would be best? The FaMi ones are at the top end of my price
range, but might be worth the extra over the other alternatives. Are there
others i've missed? I've ruled out Greenforce on price and charging /
switching, and can't see many other real alternatives with the external
charging which I think is something I should be getting.

Basically, if someone can give me some sort of guidance on what power level
i'm likely to need for the diving I described, then I can choose something
suitable. I do like the idea of being upgradeable, but in practice i'm
likely to keep it for several years, and by the time i'd want a new one I
should have a proper job anyway. I'm just waiting on the price for the
umbilical conversion kit for the FaMi 2001, which if reasonable I would
probably go for that torch unless I really don't need anywhere near that
power level.
Then again, with the variable power levels of the Suunto, along with its
long burn times, external charging, smallish size, and being one of the
cheapest, it is very tempting too! But then I couldn't make that one
umbilical in the future... And there's not all that much info about the
Suunto - not much in the way of independent opinion on them. Thats also one
of the ones I first looked at, before I moved to looking at the more
expensive umbilicals.

If only decisions were easy! :o(

David

"David Walker" <wbsdavenews@hotmail.com> wrote

> Hey again peoples!
>
> On my intrepid search for a torch, I think i've come full circle and now
i'm
> back at the cheaper end of the market.
>
> David


http://www.splash.co.nz/productdetai...11LY4R889A WC
NFPROD&groupid=QEKUYHEFQQXSDLBUOMIEIUSNXKYPOVXNPRG R&brand=Princeton%20Tec
Use NiMH rechargables and this will do as a general use light for peering
under rocks in daylight, and the NZ dollar is about 30 pence UK.

also check out the rechargables from Saeko.
http://www.divehq.co.nz/divehq_shado...y/v76060_3.pdf
the PLS AL-20 is about 210 quid.

the Nemo 8C with rechargable NiMH C cells sounds good at 100,000
candlepower. and with a charger and NiMH C cells you can charge up a couple
of dozen batteries during the week to be able to change batteries and have a
fresh set for every dive, at 75 quid plus postage you could afford quite a
few rechargeable batteries and a charger.

More options to puzzle over... lol

rhys

"David Walker" <wbsdavenews@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bnv6a4$62$1@wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk...
> Hey again peoples!
>
> On my intrepid search for a torch, I think i've come full circle and now
i'm
> back at the cheaper end of the market.
> The main problem i'm having is knowing what sort of power I need - i've
only
> ever used a weeny little torch before, and that was early evening at 6m,
and
> another time at 20m or so during the day when it was just used for peering
> into / under things. I'm going to be going deeper and doing night dives
> though, so need something of my own and with a little more umph to it I
> think - question is, how much? I won't be doing anything over 35m really,
> and night dives will be in both clear (Red Sea) water and around the UK,
> which I imagine is the darkest its going to get.
> Since I won't have the chance to test any of these before i buy, I am
> relying heavily on recommendations and specs, and reviews in magazines.

Go for a GF Arrow 6. Then in 2 months time when you change your mind again
you can upgrade it to an arrow 12, umbilical , lantern or whatever takes
your fancy at the time. It means you won't end up binning the whole torch
and starting again.

HTH

"Tricky" <scubatricky@nospamyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bnvoie$lm6$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>
> Go for a GF Arrow 6. Then in 2 months time when you change your mind again
> you can upgrade it to an arrow 12, umbilical , lantern or whatever
takes
> your fancy at the time. It means you won't end up binning the whole torch
> and starting again.

Aye - that would be my advice too. I do like the Greenforce stuff purely
because it's so modular. Personally I went for an F2 battery pack, though...

> > Go for a GF Arrow 6. Then in 2 months time when you change your mind
again
> > you can upgrade it to an arrow 12, umbilical , lantern or whatever
> takes
> > your fancy at the time. It means you won't end up binning the whole
torch
> > and starting again.
>
> Aye - that would be my advice too. I do like the Greenforce stuff purely
> because it's so modular. Personally I went for an F2 battery pack,
though...

I do keep looking at the Greenforce torches, but i'm still not convinced -
its not a irrational thing, but my thoughts on them are below:

The dimensions of the Arrow 6, and especially the 12, are on the long side,
and so I think with those i'd really want them to be umbilical.

An arrow 6 umbilical is say £179, which gets me a 20W torch with 55mins burn
time. However, (i may be wrong here) the on/off twisty bit is on the end of
the battery pack, not the bit in your hand - is that correct? In which
case, its not going to be very good for the type of dive where I may be
doing 2 or 3 a day, but only using the torch the peer into holes etc. It
would have to be on and stay on, but i'd prefer more flexibility than that.
With this i'd also have to open it up every time I need to charge it, which
is something I wanted to avoid.

The arrow 6, the cheap one, doesn't have a very direct upgrade route, since
i'd need to get another battery pack and a manifold for the batteries before
I could use any other head on it.

So, I could get the Arrow 12 umbilical (there's no way I could carry a
nearly 60cm non-umbilical torch conveniently on most dives), which is £280
for 50W - I only get 35mins burn time, it is easily upgradeable, but I still
have the problem that (i think) the on/off is on the battery pack which I
won't easily be able to get to, and the length of it may I think make it
longer than my 12l dumpy cylinder! It also doesn't have the external
charge, something I wanted. For a few pound more (not sure exactly how much
yet), I could get the FaMi 2001 umbilical, which is a 50W, with longer burn
times (3 times longer with a 30W bulb), has the external charge, has a
smaller battery pack, has the on/off on the head, and is just as upgradeable
as the Greenforce.

I know this all sounds like I just really don't like the Greenforce, but its
not that at all - I just see there being better alternatives, and the couple
of things which I just don't like about them (namely the position and method
by which they are turned on and off, and charging).

At the moment i'm thinking about giving the FaMi a miss too, and going with
the Suunto - less than £200, very adjustable with good burn times, not
upgradeable, but if I can find out what sort of power I can expect to need
then hopefully I won't need to upgrade for a few years anyway. Otherwise,
if I need more power i'd go for the FaMi 2001 handheld, which has loads of
upgrade options, including umbilical if I find I don't like the full torch
dangling around.

Sorry - hope that gives you some insight as to why I have stopped
considering the Greenforce as an option. If you can give some sort of guide
as to what the different power levels are good for, that would be a great
help, ie 10W OK for daylight dives to 50m, 20W OK for night dives in fairly
clear water, 30W good for deep night dives in moderately silty water, etc...
I know its a very inexact science, but just a very basic guideline would be
useful.

David

I completley forgot about the F2 pack, sorry Bardo!!!

This is really the best option David, the others are gonna limit you for
future use and you'll be pissed off that you spent £200 on a piece of kit
that stays in your bag.

Why do you want external charging? Are you gonna be charging it on a
liveaboard in a force 10? Or are you gonna be plugging it in when you get
home / hotel after a dive?

I constantly dive during the summer with a UKD4R and have never had a
problem dismantling it to charge the battery (alot more hassle than the GF
stuff as well).

As for the suunto...it's up to you, if I was forced into having a lantern,
I'd go straight for an F2 body with 20/30w head. Or possibly an Omersub, but
they're (like the suunto) also not the best solution.

The choice, as they say, is yours!

David Walker wrote:
>>This is really the best option David, the others are gonna limit you for
>>future use and you'll be pissed off that you spent £200 on a piece of kit
>>that stays in your bag.
>
>
> I hate decisions!
> Can you tell me where you turn the Grrenforce torches on? If it was an
> umbilical do I have to reach behind to do it or can I do it on the head? If
> I can't easily turn it on and off during a dive then its a definate no no,
> if I can I will have another look at the one you suggested (F2 + 20/30W)

Greenforce torches are modular. You screw the head into a collar (which
may be just a threaded tube, or might be goodman handle, or a video
mount). You screw in the umbilical to the other side of this, then the
umbilical into the battery pack.

All of these joints are protected by three 'o'-rings. Any of them could
be used as a switch.

Personally... before I get in the water everything is screwed up tight,
and the head is unscrewed a turn or so. Predive check done, I screw the
head in. The light comes on and stays on for the whole dive - then at
the deco stop (or on the ascent if the vis is good and there is ambient
light) - I unscrew the head to turn the torch off to stop dazzling
anyone looking up at me.

IMHO one of the best things about greenforces is their modularity: If at
the moment you
can't afford a full umbilical, buy the head and the F2 pack. Later on
buy an umbilical cable and collar. Still later if you want more light
buy a new head for it.

Have you looked at the LED ones? Very cheap at diver's warehouse at the
moment...

Ben


--
Ben Panter, Edinburgh
My name (no spaces)@bigfoot which is a com.

> All of these joints are protected by three 'o'-rings. Any of them could
> be used as a switch.

Ahhh - so I can use any of the connections. I assumed there would be one of
the screw fittings slightly different to the rest which was specifically for
turning it on and off. That does get rid of one of my two concerns about
them then. I still think I would prefer the external charge, but I suppose
I could do without it. If everyone can spend hours playing with seals on a
camera, I can spend a couple making sure a few o-rings are all nice and in
place.

> IMHO one of the best things about greenforces is their modularity: If at
> the moment you
> can't afford a full umbilical, buy the head and the F2 pack. Later on
> buy an umbilical cable and collar. Still later if you want more light
> buy a new head for it.

I've had a look - the FII with either Std 12 or Pro head is £260. In
comparison to the other stuff i've been looking at, its probably roughly
equivalent to the FaMi 2001 Umbilical, for which I don't know the price
yet - depends on the cost of the umbilical upgrade for it.

> Have you looked at the LED ones? Very cheap at diver's warehouse at the
> moment...

Are the LEDs any good though? I know they have a very long burn time, but
what sort of light output do they realistically give in comparison to a
normal halogen / xenon bulb? It says 30W equivalent, but is the penetration
etc similar? Surely its more of a backup torch for reading gauges than
lighting up a night dive or whatever?

I'll keep looking! I was hoping to decide before the dive show, but it
might be that I just end up wandering round, looking at them all, and making
a quick decision on the day...

David

> Greenforce torches are modular. You screw the head into a collar (which
> may be just a threaded tube, or might be goodman handle, or a video
> mount). You screw in the umbilical to the other side of this, then the
> umbilical into the battery pack.

Any idea what sort of batteries are used in the Arrow 6/12 and the FIIs?
Are they custom battery packs, or just standard battery sizes? For the A12
it seems to be £90 just for the batteries, and at £9 per battery assuming
they're standard thats a lot and i'd get them separately.

David

David Walker wrote:
>>Greenforce torches are modular. You screw the head into a collar (which
>>may be just a threaded tube, or might be goodman handle, or a video
>>mount). You screw in the umbilical to the other side of this, then the
>>umbilical into the battery pack.
>
>
> Any idea what sort of batteries are used in the Arrow 6/12 and the FIIs?
> Are they custom battery packs, or just standard battery sizes? For the A12
> it seems to be £90 just for the batteries, and at £9 per battery assuming
> they're standard thats a lot and i'd get them separately.

Dunno. If you take the battery pack out of the metal tube it looks like
a load of C cells shrink wrapped together - but of course looks can be
deceptive. You may find that you have charging problems if you make your
own battery - my GF 12 charges with the fast charger in a few hours,
where it takes 30 odd hours to charge the NiMH C cells that live in my
spare torch.

If it was me, I'd bite the bullet and buy the unit in it's entity.
Everything was designed to work together - internal resistance, fast
charging, effect on the bulb through voltage drop over use, battery life
and a whole lot of other things that mean nothing to you and me but were
probably considered by folk a whole lot cleverer than us when they were
putting the torch together.

Ben

--
Ben Panter, Edinburgh
My name (no spaces)@bigfoot which is a com.