Reduntant air supply? on stoney dive!

Mark Williams wrote:
> John" wrote
>> For a basic dive in stoney (say 22m no deco) is there a valid reason
>> why a pony should be used, or does the buddy provide suffiencent
>> capability (assuming you dont lose him!)
>
> Been diving since 95 ( max depth 45M) and have only ever used a 12L
> plus octo on O/C never have understood why there has been so much the
> fuss about pony cylinder's but I guess if it makes you feel safer
> then get one.

That's normal. Modern kit is reliable but the fact that I've not had a car
wreck in 30 years doesn't mean I don't bother to do up my seat belt.
If I'm too deep to do a simple swimming ascent or if I have planned
deco I want an independent fall-back system.

> SCR/CCR well that's a different story.

If you're going to make digs at people don't pick the ones you can't
hear coming....

nigelH

John wrote:

> For a basic dive in stoney (say 22m no deco) is there a valid reason why a
> pony should be used, or does the buddy provide suffiencent capability
> (assuming you dont lose him!)
>
> For this type of dive what is the ideal setup (two seconds off your main
> tank to allow to share) and a single first/second on the pony for your own
> use?

I've only recently got my OW. It would seem like a pretty good idea to me to
always carry a pony.
My instructor said PADI don't teach it, but how do you know that you'll
always be able to get to your buddy.
As I see it, pony's aren't exactly expensive but it's your life not mine. If
you feel you'll always be able to trust your buddy then don't carry one.
--
Jon@GoAwaylawrence.org.uk
Remove GoAway to email.

"Mark Williams" <mark.nospam.williams@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:boon2t$1bakuj$1@ID-169335.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "Bardo" <anon@anon.com> wrote in message
> news:bookmq$1ftvn3$1@ID-115313.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> > Most?! Personally I'd never trust my life to a support mechanism that I
> know
> > is only going to be there *most* of the time...
> >
>
> I would never dive with the view that my buddy was ever a life support
> mechanism. I think when you are diving you should be capable of self
rescue
> for me a dive to 22M would not require my to get to worked up about not
> having a pony cylinder.

Absolutely. There's no substitute for self rescue but equally, you owe it to
yourself to consider alternative methods of kit redundancy. Considering that
a pony gives you a 100% independant breathing system and can be picked up
for less than £200, I'd say it's a good investment - side sling it and you
can even hand it off in the event that your buddy gets into serious sh*t.
Either way, a pony could make having to exit through a confined space
considerably easier if the donor is not using a long hose on their
primary...

Bardo" <anon@anon.com> wrote in message
news:boov63$1ghvi1$1@ID-115313.news.uni-berlin.de...

> Absolutely. There's no substitute for self rescue but equally, you owe it
to
> yourself to consider alternative methods of kit redundancy. Considering
that
> a pony gives you a 100% independant breathing system and can be picked up
> for less than £200, I'd say it's a good investment - side sling it and you
> can even hand it off in the event that your buddy gets into serious sh*t.
> Either way,a pony could make having to exit through a confined space
> considerably easier if the donor is not using a long hose on their
> primary...


Strange thing is as I am now moving up from a Dolphin to a KISS sometime
next year and I have already have the harness and wing I will use I might
start getting use to side mounting a 3L bail out cylinder now..

MarkW

nospam to scuba to reply

Mark Williams wrote:
> Nigel Hewitt" wrote
>
>>> SCR/CCR well that's a different story.
>
> If you're going to make digs at people don't pick the ones you can't
>> hear coming....
>
> I am only slightly confused now Nigel perhaps I should have said
> that when I dive with my Dolphin SCR I use O/C bail out and when I
> eventually get my KISS I also will also use O/C bail out. It was not
> meant to be a dig at anybody just saying that I don't think you
> always need a pony when diving O/C.

Your post said "I've never needed a pony so (by implication) you
don't need one" then added the SCR/CCR comment.
I read it as a poke so I poked back. 8¬)

When you get the CCR you will realise that OC is for a wuss that can't
pack a scrubber properly.
SCR is bailout. <vbg>

nigelH

"Nigel Hewitt" <nigelh@REMOVETHISnigelhewitt.net> wrote in message
news:bop36s$k0$1@titan.btinternet.com...

> Your post said "I've never needed a pony so (by implication) you
> don't need one" then added the SCR/CCR comment.
> I read it as a poke so I poked back. 8¬)

I thought I said "Been diving since 95 ( max depth 45M) and have only ever
used a 12L plus
octo on O/C never have understood why there has been so much the fuss about"

But ok It might have been badly written so you win.

> When you get the CCR you will realise that OC is for a wuss that can't
> pack a scrubber properly.
SCR is bailout. <vbg>

Its a big when many months ago Keith was kind enough to reply to my e mail
on the KISS list and let me have a look at the unit for real I was hoping to
have one by now but for a variety reasons it looks like it will now be
sometime next year.
Maybe O/C is for wuss but from Gordon's web site.
" recommend using 13 cubic foot (2 liter) tanks. The limiting factor on the
rebreather is the 3 hour scrubber. A 13 cubic foot oxygen tank will provide
5 hours of oxygen at a consumption rate of 1 liter per minute. A 13 cubic
foot diluent tank will provide enough gas for an experienced rebreather
diver to do two hour long dives to 150 feet. If you carry more gas than
this, and you should, it should be in the form of emergency bailout open
circuit gas in separate tanks. A larger diluent tank is not an adequate
bailout gas supply. Carefully analyze the failure paths on your gas supply
and don't put all your eggs (gas) in one basket (tank)."

MarkW




nospam to scuba to reply


>
>

Mark Williams wrote:
> "Nigel Hewitt" wrote
>> When you get the CCR you will realise that OC is for a wuss that
>> can't pack a scrubber properly.
>> SCR is bailout. <vbg>
>
> Its a big when many months ago Keith was kind enough to reply to my e
> mail on the KISS list and let me have a look at the unit for real I
> was hoping to have one by now but for a variety reasons it looks like
> it will now be sometime next year.
> Maybe O/C is for wuss but from Gordon's web site.
> " recommend using 13 cubic foot (2 liter) tanks. The limiting factor
> on the rebreather is the 3 hour scrubber. A 13 cubic foot oxygen tank
> will provide 5 hours of oxygen at a consumption rate of 1 liter per
> minute. A 13 cubic foot diluent tank will provide enough gas for an
> experienced rebreather diver to do two hour long dives to 150 feet.
> If you carry more gas than this, and you should, it should be in the
> form of emergency bailout open circuit gas in separate tanks. A
> larger diluent tank is not an adequate bailout gas supply. Carefully
> analyze the failure paths on your gas supply and don't put all your
> eggs (gas) in one basket (tank)."

<shrug>
I have two three litre tanks which I consider adequate to 40m. Beyond that
I start asking about what is planned and I would move up to my 7L sideslings
if the profile rated it. I normally budget to use 30 to 40 bar of gas each side
on an hour's dive and probably use less now that I run seperate suit inflation.
I only use more if I get bored hanging on a blob and start playing emergency
drills - sadly SCR mode is not easy to practice as it bangs the stop time up to
forever.

OC is the last resort when you have lost the loop and all the scare stories
for that involve a brain fade on setting up. Even the guy who slashed his
hoses on a wreck discovered that it gurgled a lot but still worked.

The KISS is good kit - I doubt there is anything you can do on the YBOD that
you can't manage on it but Gordon's documentation, like APD's, does try to
make you think about the risks of diving a variable mix device. My main
consession to the 'one tank' problem is a reg on the oxygen. Once I have hit
planned depth the dil has done it's job.

I still think 3L ponys are a good idea although these days I only clip mine
onto the box when somebody says "Nigel. Your turn to bag up the shot."

nigelH

"Nigel Hewitt" <nigelh@REMOVETHISnigelhewitt.net> wrote in message
news:boq4kn$4d9$1@sparta.btinternet.com...

> I have two three litre tanks which I consider adequate to 40m. Beyond that
> I start asking about what is planned and I would move up to my 7L
sideslings
> if the profile rated it. I normally budget to use 30 to 40 bar of gas each
side
> on an hour's dive and probably use less now that I run seperate suit
inflation.
> I only use more if I get bored hanging on a blob and start playing
emergency
> drills - sadly SCR mode is not easy to practice as it bangs the stop time
up to
> forever.
>
> OC is the last resort when you have lost the loop and all the scare
stories
> for that involve a brain fade on setting up. Even the guy who slashed his
> hoses on a wreck discovered that it gurgled a lot but still worked.


Well original I thought the same will only be diving to a max of 35-40M so
the plan was to just stick a reg on the diluent cylinder for bail out but
have there been any cases of first stages going pop in which case the reg
would be useless.

MarkW

nospam to scuba to reply

>
> - side sling it and you
> can even hand it off in the event that your buddy gets into serious sh*t.
>

I know it's not the main thread, but i've always questioned this argument
to support side slung.
If you have it mounted on a rack then it's easy to "pull the pin".
Similarly if you have it on say AP pony bands again it's very easy to pull
the straps and release the pony (albeit by the person using it).

Might be easier with side-slung (for the donor), but you can hand off
with any rig.

TerryH

TerryH wrote:
>> - side sling it and you
>>can even hand it off in the event that your buddy gets into serious sh*t.
>>
>
>
> I know it's not the main thread, but i've always questioned this argument
> to support side slung.
> If you have it mounted on a rack then it's easy to "pull the pin".
> Similarly if you have it on say AP pony bands again it's very easy to pull
> the straps and release the pony (albeit by the person using it).
>
> Might be easier with side-slung (for the donor), but you can hand off
> with any rig.

I think that handing off is proably about as easy - but the real
question has to be what the recepient does with the bottle. If it is
"stage rigged" they can clip it on to themselves straight away and then
have both hands free for the ascent. If it is just a bare pony they have
to use a hand to hold on to it - and if it slips from their grip we're
back to square one.

Ben


--
Ben Panter, Edinburgh
My name (no spaces)@bigfoot which is a com.