Force Fins forces Rodale's Scuba Diving to pay for scuba equipment ratings scam

Force Fin left this mess on Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:09:27 GMT for The Way to clean
up:
>

What's the matter, Susanne? My points make TOO much sense for you that you had
no quick answer fo them?

This is the Internet, babe. Get your act together before you run your mouth.

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif

"Force Fin" <info@forcefin.com> wrote in message
news:bHyvb.10197$n56.631@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> Dan,
>
> How's this for catering to Elite Force ... Fin customers:
>
> I'm not sure if the pictures I posted will show... But you can see them
at:
> A friend just brought us by one as a gift.
> http://www.blueboxtoys.com/bbi/eForce/udt/udt.htm and
> http://www.blueboxtoys.com/bbi/MARCINKO_SWIMMER/g.htm
> Authentic replicas of Seal Team Diver and Combat Swimmers. They should
have
> had the Air Force SAR and PJ's with Force Fins too.
>
> Best,
>
> Susanne Chess
> Force Fin

Susanne,

Way back when I first had conversations with Bob--many years ago, I recall
the Seal Team use example. These guys are elite athletes, there is no
question. But from a "specialized athlete perspective" , they are swimmers
who use fins---and they have special criteria in what they require of a
fin--these guys have to jump out of planes and helicopters with their fins
on---this alone would destroy a competition pair of freediving fins, on the
first jump.

Combat swimmers also need an exacting ability to calculate their speed and
to be able to triangulate their positions, so that if they are dropped out
at sea, and have to swim into a harbor miles away, they can navigate to
their intended target--whether this is a ship or a land based exit point. A
constant flutter kick with an exact timing and rhythm, would help these
guys in their speed and distance calculations--and this is CRITICAL for
their calculations. With the big kick and long glide of the freedive fin, it
would be almost impossible to accomplish any precision close to what could
be done with the Force Fin flutter kicks.

One other problem for the freedive fin on many Seal Team missions----if they
are loaded up with much gear ( guns, special equipment, etc), their drag in
the water will be high. While the freediving fin has a big "push" to
overcome drag with, it is "geared" too high, to use over mile or multi
mile distances, if you can't glide a few seconds after each push/kick.
Force Fins, on the other hand, particularly the models I see the Seals
using (from photos passed around so far), are geared much lower, so that
gliding is not required, and the small push (but high frequency kick) will
be the more efficient way for an elite swimmer to push all the drag of
their extensive equipment ,through the water.

Freedive fins on scuba divers work best with very streamlined BC's--like
the Halcyon I use. Its drag is little more than the tank on your back, and
you can glide along way per kick, much like a freediver. The divers who buy
the fancy colored BC's with huge pockets, and stuff dragging all over them,
move through the water like an inflated puffer fish---and consequently, they
need to kick like an inflated puffer--very fast frequency, low amplitude.
The diver with a slick BC like a Halcyon, and with some Omer C4 competition
freedive fins, will move more like a 6 foot long barracuda----a big kick and
a huge long glide.....or, with a good rhythm going, you can even surf on
your own wave when a high speed episode is required. But this DOES require a
slick BC and slick diver ( forget dragging lobster bag, pony bottles, etc).


As to the "cool factor", yeah, it is pretty cool that the Seals are using
your fins. I'd like that , if I was in Bob and your shoes.

But my point is, there is also a kind of underwater athlete that needs the
big kick and long glide of the best freedive fins. Its not a huge market,
but there is little competition in this market either, meaning that it could
still be a profitable endeavor for Force Fins to make a freedive fin for
freedivers, and for elite level freedivers ( and for scuba divers who prefer
this type of fin and kicking style). I do believe Bob "could" make the best
competition freedive fin---if he decided he wanted to. And it would have
longer and stiffer blades

Regards,
Dan V

<snip>
> Dan Volker wrote:
>
> The interesting thing is that companies like Scubapro, Mares, and the
other
> large scuba fin manufacturers, ignore the REALITY that this categorization
> used by the freedive mfg's for duration use, is IDEAL for scuba use, as it
> is an optimal way to help a person match their fitness with the flex
> characteristics of a fin. Bob Evans and Force Fin have actually done
this,
> but kept the fitness characterizations "out of" the marketing, instead
> positioning the progressively more aggressive fins as being for more
> "advanced" divers.
>> Regards,
> Dan Volker
>-------------------------------------------------------------

At the risk of incurring Dan Volker's usually unwarrranted and
considerable wrath I think it should be pointed out that the ScubaPro Twin
Jets DO come in three differing levels of stiffness. And yes Dan, there are
shops out there that will point this out to potential customers. And NO Dan
I am not trying to advertise for the above-mentioned company. And NO to any
of the other accusations you will undoubtedly heap on me for having a
difference of opinion or daring to hint that you might not have the very
last word on every subject.

"It is the wise man who begins to realize the depths of his own ignorance"

Bob

>

"Bob and Mary Beard" <beardm001@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:9BLvb.16998$y9.5018@twister.socal.rr.com...
> <snip>
> > Dan Volker wrote:
> >
> > The interesting thing is that companies like Scubapro, Mares, and the
> other
> > large scuba fin manufacturers, ignore the REALITY that this
categorization
> > used by the freedive mfg's for duration use, is IDEAL for scuba use, as
it
> > is an optimal way to help a person match their fitness with the flex
> > characteristics of a fin. Bob Evans and Force Fin have actually done
> this,
> > but kept the fitness characterizations "out of" the marketing, instead
> > positioning the progressively more aggressive fins as being for more
> > "advanced" divers.
> >> Regards,
> > Dan Volker
> >-------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At the risk of incurring Dan Volker's usually unwarrranted and
> considerable wrath I think it should be pointed out that the ScubaPro Twin
> Jets DO come in three differing levels of stiffness. And yes Dan, there
are
> shops out there that will point this out to potential customers. And NO
Dan
> I am not trying to advertise for the above-mentioned company. And NO to
any
> of the other accusations you will undoubtedly heap on me for having a
> difference of opinion or daring to hint that you might not have the very
> last word on every subject.
>

Thanks for the clarification Bob.
As to the "wrath" part, I guess I should apologize for the "tone" in my
recent postings which Karl has elicited.
Regards,
Dan V

The Force Fin has for many, many years been offered in different durometers,
or stiffness, Original, Pro and Tan Delta. With some of Bob Evans' new
fins, that Dan has tried, you can change the stiffness and/or blade dynamics
of the same blade while you are underwater and underway.

Susanne Chess
Force Fin

"Bob and Mary Beard" <beardm001@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:9BLvb.16998$y9.5018@twister.socal.rr.com...
> <snip>
> > Dan Volker wrote:
> >
> > The interesting thing is that companies like Scubapro, Mares, and the
> other
> > large scuba fin manufacturers, ignore the REALITY that this
categorization
> > used by the freedive mfg's for duration use, is IDEAL for scuba use, as
it
> > is an optimal way to help a person match their fitness with the flex
> > characteristics of a fin. Bob Evans and Force Fin have actually done
> this,
> > but kept the fitness characterizations "out of" the marketing, instead
> > positioning the progressively more aggressive fins as being for more
> > "advanced" divers.
> >> Regards,
> > Dan Volker
> >-------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At the risk of incurring Dan Volker's usually unwarrranted and
> considerable wrath I think it should be pointed out that the ScubaPro Twin
> Jets DO come in three differing levels of stiffness. And yes Dan, there
are
> shops out there that will point this out to potential customers. And NO
Dan
> I am not trying to advertise for the above-mentioned company. And NO to
any
> of the other accusations you will undoubtedly heap on me for having a
> difference of opinion or daring to hint that you might not have the very
> last word on every subject.
>
> "It is the wise man who begins to realize the depths of his own ignorance"
>
> Bob
>
> >
>
>

No insider information, I merely read both sides of the issue and can remember
what each side says, but Susanne, are you saying your information is somehow
tainted? That you're not disclosing the whole truth?

Force Fin left this mess on Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:31:24 GMT for The Way to clean
up:
>
>No. Just debating if I want to get into detailed discussions with someone
>who obviously has insider information, but does not to disclose who he is.
>
>Susanne Chess
>Force Fin
>
>"de Valois" <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote in message
>news:bpmom302d5i@drn.newsguy.com...
>> Force Fin left this mess on Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:09:27 GMT for The Way to
>clean
>> up:
>> >
>>
>> What's the matter, Susanne? My points make TOO much sense for you that you
>had
>> no quick answer fo them?
>>
>> This is the Internet, babe. Get your act together before you run your
>mouth.
>>
>> Tao te Carl
>> "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
>>
>> (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass
>question
>> here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
>>
>
>

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif

de Valois left this mess on 22 Nov 2003 15:09:43 -0800 for The Way to clean up:
>
>No insider information, I merely read both sides of the issue and can remember
>what each side says, but Susanne, are you saying your information is somehow
>tainted? That you're not disclosing the whole truth?
>
>Force Fin left this mess on Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:31:24 GMT for The Way to clean
>up:
>>
>>No. Just debating if I want to get into detailed discussions with someone
>>who obviously has insider information, but does not to disclose who he is.
>>
>>Susanne Chess
>>Force Fin
>>
>>"de Valois" <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote in message
>>news:bpmom302d5i@drn.newsguy.com...
>>> Force Fin left this mess on Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:09:27 GMT for The Way to
>>clean
>>> up:
>>> >
>>>
>>> What's the matter, Susanne? My points make TOO much sense for you that you
>>had
>>> no quick answer fo them?
>>>
>>> This is the Internet, babe. Get your act together before you run your
>>mouth.
>>>
>>> Tao te Carl
>>> "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
>>>
>>> (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass
>>question
>>> here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
>>>
>>
>>
>
>Tao te Carl
>"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
>
>(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass question
>here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
>

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif

"Bob and Mary Beard" <beardm001@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:9BLvb.16998$y9.5018@twister.socal.rr.com...

>
> At the risk of incurring Dan Volker's usually unwarrranted and
> considerable wrath I think it should be pointed out that the ScubaPro Twin
> Jets DO come in three differing levels of stiffness. And yes Dan, there
are
> shops out there that will point this out to potential customers. And NO
Dan
> I am not trying to advertise for the above-mentioned company. And NO to
any
> of the other accusations you will undoubtedly heap on me for having a
> difference of opinion or daring to hint that you might not have the very
> last word on every subject.
>
> "It is the wise man who begins to realize the depths of his own ignorance"
>
> Bob
>

Bob and Mary,
You've brought up a point that I should explain more about---the issue about
good and bad dive shops.
Just so people know where I am coming from, in comments like the one I made
and that you took issue with, let me explain this.

In South Florida, we have a huge number of dive shops---I don't know where
you guys are from, but we probably have as many dive shops as you do Burger
Kings. Most of the dive shops are forced to offer $99 instruction in their
window, and to use automobile industry style advertising ( i.e., misleading)
in order to get divers to visit---divers with all the choices in shops, and
all the SALES advertised, are under a powerful motivating force to have zero
loyalty to a local shop. This would be about the money.

But then, you look at the differences between the shops, and there are a few
shops who really do have good divers working at them, and these good divers
want to share their experiences with the people coming into the shops. And
when you find a shop like this, they are worth paying a little more
sometimes, because they won't push the wrong gear to you, just so that the
shop can make a buck. The shops like this can do a great deal to help you in
finding the gear that is best for you ( as opposed to the gear that is best
for the shop to sell).

Anyway, you have huge numbers of the first example--the bad shops, and much
smaller numbers of the good shops.

If you ARE a good shop, then my comments should help you, because I want
divers to realize what a good resource "good shops" are, and to have some
loyalty to them---going with really good advice over trying to save a few
cents ( and potentially wasting several hundred dollars or more on the wrong
gear).

Brand new divers are often completely unaware of the degree of bad advice,
coming out of the Bad Shops. They need to hear the real story from the
people they meet who have been diving long enough to distinguish the
difference. And even divers who have been diving for several years, may need
help finding their first "good shop", because they might never have
accidentally visited one, due to the large numbers of bad ones in their
vicinity.


Maybe we should start a thread on all the good things a shop should be known
for, and all the bad things you can see in some shops--that they should be
"called on"

Regards,
Dan V

> But then, you look at the differences between the shops, and there are a
few
> shops who really do have good divers working at them, and these good
divers
> want to share their experiences with the people coming into the shops. And
> when you find a shop like this, they are worth paying a little more
> sometimes, because they won't push the wrong gear to you, just so that the
> shop can make a buck. The shops like this can do a great deal to help you
in
> finding the gear that is best for you ( as opposed to the gear that is
best
> for the shop to sell).

Name one in S. Florida. Lynn's shop doesn't count. She doesn't have enough
inventory yet to count one way or the other.

Lee

"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1U2wb.18077$Wy4.2115@newsread2.news.atl.earth link.net...
> > But then, you look at the differences between the shops, and there are a
> few
> > shops who really do have good divers working at them, and these good
> divers
> > want to share their experiences with the people coming into the shops.
And
> > when you find a shop like this, they are worth paying a little more
> > sometimes, because they won't push the wrong gear to you, just so that
the
> > shop can make a buck. The shops like this can do a great deal to help
you
> in
> > finding the gear that is best for you ( as opposed to the gear that is
> best
> > for the shop to sell).
>
> Name one in S. Florida. Lynn's shop doesn't count. She doesn't have
enough
> inventory yet to count one way or the other.
>
> Lee
>


This is hugely "worker" related. There have been guys and girls working in
shops, throughout the last 15 years, that I have seen make the shops that
they worked in great shops--in the sense we are now talking about. There
was a time that Force E on Blue Heron near the bridge was good, but not
having been there in the last 2 years, I would not have any "expectations"
above the average for it today.

Brownies Southport, about 3 years ago, had some good people working in it,
and they had some great equipment--and they would even let people demo
gear--this made them a great shop....but the people I am talking about are
not there now, and I have no idea what the caliber of present workers there
now would be.

I could point out BAD shops much more easily. SunSports on Forest Hills blvd
in West Palm jumps to mind immediately.

Lee, since I have not had to buy much in the way of gear for quite some time
now, I really can't say who is working where, and which shops are good
because of this. But this would be an excellent thread----

----- The search for the Best Dive Shop in South Florida.
Criteria: Best personnel in shop ( good divers who have knowledge and desire
to "HELP" customers over just making sales)
Best program for allowing customers to gain familiarity with
gear--Demo Program type of approach
Best Instructors
Best shop at matching "Divers" to "Dive Boats" (
advanced divers never sent to boat full of novices, rambos sent to boats
with other Rambos, Photographers sent to boats with other Photogs, i.e.,
some sense in putting people together)
Best Equipment selection ( still requires being good at
matching gear to each individual and caring about this).

Lee, what do you think should be added to this ?


Dan V