Force Fins forces Rodale's Scuba Diving to pay for scuba equipment ratings scam

> This is hugely "worker" related. There have been guys and girls working in
> shops, throughout the last 15 years, that I have seen make the shops that
> they worked in great shops--in the sense we are now talking about. There
> was a time that Force E on Blue Heron near the bridge was good, but not
> having been there in the last 2 years, I would not have any "expectations"
> above the average for it today.

None of the Force E shops are particularly convenient for me. I've found a
couple of employees in them that I liked, but more than I didn't. I'm not
real fond of the idea of having a repair shop at a remote location, but it
makes sense for them. I kind of like to know and speak with my techs first
hand. On the other hand, they did as good a job on my regulators as anybody
has and did both my USD Monitor I computers cheaper than anybody else I
could find. I'm a bit biased in favor of chain since I know Skip
personally. I used to do QA for him. I'd go into various shops looking for
just the kinds of things you mention. Sometimes I found them, sometimes I
didn't. Skip heard about it either way. In return, I got a discount on
whatever I purchased, but the biggest incentive was helping improve the
shops in the area. Any shop that cares enough to implement such a program,
is more likely to be the kind of shop we all like to find. Force E is near
the top of my list even though I don't visit them often . . . or maybe
because I don't visit them often. It's easier to maintain quality once it's
in place, but even then, it's not automatic.

The Diver's Den that used to be on University, just a bit south of 595 was
one of my favorite stores. The people there were the kind you like to find,
experienced, knowledgeable and honest. They're the ones that turned me away
from some much more expensive fins and on to Mares Avante fins. Like
everybody else, they had some good deals and some not so good ones. I
bought three complete regulators and assorted attachments from them without
problem or complaint. Theresa closed that shop long ago and Smitty, the
shop salesman I liked most, took up selling BMW cars. Go figure. Maybe
there is an honest car salesman in the world after all. I don't use the
shop that took over the location, Diver's Cove, because I know the story
behind the transition and do not think that they treated Theresa as honestly
as I would have liked. Dishonesty will kill my business faster than
anything else and, until I find out differently from a reliable source, my
opinion is that the new owner was dishonest.

> Brownies Southport, about 3 years ago, had some good people working in it,
> and they had some great equipment--and they would even let people demo
> gear--this made them a great shop....but the people I am talking about are
> not there now, and I have no idea what the caliber of present workers
there
> now would be.

Brownies still has some good people, but they're they're hardly likely to
direct anybody away from anything with the name Halcyon on it and they're
more than a little biased toward GUE. The link between the shop, Halcyon,
EE and GUE is just a bit too close for me to be comfortable recommending
them to somebody that does not know exactly what they want and why. I'm
also not fond of "fair trade pricing", something that they are more likely
to follow than unaffiliated shops. More importantly to my business, their
fill and service prices are high and the last few fills they did for me were
not even close to what they were supposed to be. I'm not sure who was
responsible. I've heard that there's one person there that seems to believe
he knows how to do partial pressure fills that, in fact, does not, but I
don't have a name to tie to the problem. I'm reasonably sure it's not any
of those I routinely talk with. Regardless, fills that are significantly
off, are not acceptable from a shop so technical in focus.

Mark, at Fill Express, is currently on my list of good guys. So far, he's
not tried to direct me to anything in particular and his fills are spot on
and quite reasonably priced. I can thank Bullshark for turning me on to
this operation and they get as much support as I can give them. I want this
shop to do well. For now, it's right on the top of my list. I've never
felt pressured and and information I get there has always left me feeling
confident that it was good and unbiased.

I buy quite a bit of my stuff from Diver's Outlet. I used to visit their
shop in Florida City on each trip to the Keys. I'm more likely to shop at
their Sawgrass store these days. I like the people and I like the prices.
One of the things I like the most, may make them less desirable for some.
They don't know as much about diving as people in most other shops I've
frequented, but they have always been honest about it. They'll give me the
line the manufacturers give them, but have never tried to convince me they
knew something they didn't. Honesty will always rank higher with me than
experience, but the two are close to equally important when I'm trying to
expand my knowledge into new areas.

> Lee, since I have not had to buy much in the way of gear for quite some
time
> now, I really can't say who is working where, and which shops are good
> because of this. But this would be an excellent thread----

I'm in much the same position. I still buy stuff once in a while, but I'm
past the point where I do much more than price shop. Most of the time, I
know what I want and, for some things, know where I'll buy it. Some of the
time, I pay higher prices for the convenience of going home with what I
want, sometimes, I pay more attention to prices. It just depends on my mood
at the time.

Lee

If you're not working on insider information, then you're speculating
other's (Rodale's) strategy and motivation without information, which is
worse. Unsubstatiated babble.

If you think more information needs to be out there, you could come to Santa
Barbara. I'd provide you the boxes and boxes and boxes of documents, and a
scanner so you could post them on the internet for everyone to read. Bob
would love to have someone do that for us.

Fortunately, we don't have time do so. Our life is tied up doing positive
things... getting the Launch Pad line of interchangeable bladed fins ready
for general distribution, preparing for the Scuba Radio dive with Cobalt
Coast and Divetech in Cayman in December. There are a few spaces left if
anyone is interested in joining us -- see www.scubaradio.com We'll be
bringing all sorts of fun new stuff to try, and have a lot of fun otherwise
too!

Susanne Chess
Force Fin



"de Valois" <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote in message
news:bpoqbn02v2k@drn.newsguy.com...
> No insider information, I merely read both sides of the issue and can
remember
> what each side says, but Susanne, are you saying your information is
somehow
> tainted? That you're not disclosing the whole truth?
>
> Force Fin left this mess on Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:31:24 GMT for The Way to
clean
> up:
> >
> >No. Just debating if I want to get into detailed discussions with someone
> >who obviously has insider information, but does not to disclose who he
is.
> >
> >Susanne Chess
> >Force Fin
> >
> >"de Valois" <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote in message
> >news:bpmom302d5i@drn.newsguy.com...
> >> Force Fin left this mess on Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:09:27 GMT for The Way
to
> >clean
> >> up:
> >> >
> >>
> >> What's the matter, Susanne? My points make TOO much sense for you that
you
> >had
> >> no quick answer fo them?
> >>
> >> This is the Internet, babe. Get your act together before you run your
> >mouth.
> >>
> >> Tao te Carl
> >> "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
> >>
> >> (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass
> >question
> >> here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
> >>
> >
> >
>
> Tao te Carl
> "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
>
> (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass
question
> here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
>

Force Fin left this mess on Sun, 23 Nov 2003 19:11:05 GMT for The Way to clean
up:
>
>If you're not working on insider information, then you're speculating
>other's (Rodale's) strategy and motivation without information, which is
>worse. Unsubstatiated babble.

I merely quoted what you and Dane Farnum said publicly. If there's any babble,
Susanne, Force Fins is the babbler. I notice you don't deny the truth of what
I've posted, and merely claim it's "insider information" without commenting on
the merits of what I've said.

>If you think more information needs to be out there, you could come to Santa
>Barbara. I'd provide you the boxes and boxes and boxes of documents, and a
>scanner so you could post them on the internet for everyone to read. Bob
>would love to have someone do that for us.

Given the level of animosity here regarding Rodales, I'm surprised you'd make
this offer to me. Pay my first class airfare roundtrip from NYC, and throw in a
week's stay at a hotel, and it's a deal. I'll feed myself, thanks.

>Fortunately, we don't have time do so. Our life is tied up doing positive
>things... getting the Launch Pad line of interchangeable bladed fins ready
>for general distribution, preparing for the Scuba Radio dive with Cobalt
>Coast and Divetech in Cayman in December. There are a few spaces left if
>anyone is interested in joining us -- see www.scubaradio.com We'll be
>bringing all sorts of fun new stuff to try, and have a lot of fun otherwise
>too!
>
>Susanne Chess
>Force Fin
>
>
>
>"de Valois" <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote in message
>news:bpoqbn02v2k@drn.newsguy.com...
>> No insider information, I merely read both sides of the issue and can
>remember
>> what each side says, but Susanne, are you saying your information is
>somehow
>> tainted? That you're not disclosing the whole truth?
>>
>> Force Fin left this mess on Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:31:24 GMT for The Way to
>clean
>> up:
>> >
>> >No. Just debating if I want to get into detailed discussions with someone
>> >who obviously has insider information, but does not to disclose who he
>is.
>> >
>> >Susanne Chess
>> >Force Fin
>> >
>> >"de Valois" <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote in message
>> >news:bpmom302d5i@drn.newsguy.com...
>> >> Force Fin left this mess on Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:09:27 GMT for The Way
>to
>> >clean
>> >> up:
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> What's the matter, Susanne? My points make TOO much sense for you that
>you
>> >had
>> >> no quick answer fo them?
>> >>
>> >> This is the Internet, babe. Get your act together before you run your
>> >mouth.
>> >>
>> >> Tao te Carl
>> >> "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
>> >>
>> >> (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass
>> >question
>> >> here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Tao te Carl
>> "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
>>
>> (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass
>question
>> here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
>>
>
>

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif

Force Fin <info@forcefin.com> wrote:
>Fortunately, we don't have time do so. Our life is tied up doing positive
>things... getting the Launch Pad line of interchangeable bladed fins ready
>for general distribution, preparing for the Scuba Radio dive with Cobalt

Oh, never mind Carl. He's too busy filling the group's need for the
active contrarian and the village idiot. Normally these are separate
roles, but you know, downsizing.

BTW, you'll get my jetfins from me when you pull the spring straps off my
cold dead corpse, no sooner!
--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

de Valois <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote:
>Yea, your biased mind might think that, I guess. On the other hand, their
>lawyers could have said, "you know what? We're going to charge about $20,000 to
>fight this charge and in the end, no one is going to be any the wiser about
>whether Force Fins are as good or bad as you said they were, so it's probably
>better to settle."

If you put out a cash offer for anyone that can call you on your honesty,
it doesn't work well to settle when someone tries. It only encourages
more to come out. And if the case was as frivilous as you claimed, they
would have recaptured those legal fees.

They settled because they couldn't have that verdict on record.

>Happens all the time, Factboy. Surprised that fact hasn't sunk into your
>paranoid little skull.

you having trouble with the definition of paranoid? It's clear that you
think it means something else. You getting older, but are you learning
anything as you go?

--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

"Jason O'Rourke" <jor@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:bpvk0o$25ol$1@agate.berkeley.edu...
> Dan Volker <dvolker@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >I could point out BAD shops much more easily. SunSports on Forest Hills
blvd
> >in West Palm jumps to mind immediately.
>
> I'm trying to recall the shop I visited last month on my trip. Seadog?
> Near Abernathy's outfit. Nice guys, btw.
>

That would have been Seapro. It is a very well stocked shop, and they do
have some pretty knowledgeable divers working there.
It's not a place where you would expect the best prices, but if you are on
your way to go diving, and need something right way, Seapro is awesome.

So were you diving on Jimmy Abernethy's boat? Funny, I don't recall
hearing from you, that you were about to dive here, and would I like to dive


How was the trip?

Regards,
Dan V

Dan Volker <dvolker@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>So were you diving on Jimmy Abernethy's boat? Funny, I don't recall
>hearing from you, that you were about to dive here, and would I like to dive
>


Work was a total bear heading into the trip - I didn't book that Thursday
until the day before, and I drove direct from the airport to the waiting boat.

I'll hit you offline on the trip details. I nearly did call you when the
weather grounded boats for the weekend.

Jason
--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

"Dan Volker" <dvolker@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:r7rub.223$gU2.201@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
> > Dan, I think your points about the fishermen are absolutely valid,
> > particularly with all of the 'fishing piers' down here in my area. I
> > wouldn't mind seeing them all go. I have to tell you though, even though
> > Abernethy may have been 2 or 3 miles offshore, down here there were
> several
> > ops that fed very close to shore, and some that fed on the first
reefline,
> > where student divers and schnorgellers are all splashing around daily.
Not
> > to mention the proximity to the beaches.
> >
>
> Dave,
> Feeding on the first reefline would piss me off, and be just about the
same
> level of ignorance ( for the dive operator) that I would assign to the
> "municipalities" who place fishing Piers in the middle of big public
> swimming beaches. You were right to be upset over that.
>
> However, the dive operators can't do this anymore--it is now illegal.
> So that story is over with.....

Yep, but the problem *was* that while it was legal, not everybody did it
responsibly.

>.
> If the ban on shark feeds by divers "had to" happen....why is it that all
> the "concerned parties" are now silent on a related issue which threatens
> far more swimmers every year--and can actually be linked directly to
swimmer
> attacks by sharks.
>
>
Let me know when you get the campaign going. I'll offer my support.

Dave.

friscuba@hawaii.rr.com (friscuba) wrote:
>
> Let's face it. I read the initial Rodale's report on split fins, they
> reported at the time they had been trying to get Force fins submitted
> for reviews for years, and only bought them after Apollo presented a
> pair of their own fins for review and tests. Force fins apparently
> tested superior to all fins in the test, except the split fins from
> Apollo. The market jumped for those which placed at the top of
> Rodale's test results...not the one which would have likely topped the
> test in previous years if they had only submitted their product for
> tests... Opportunites lost, perhaps Force would have cleaned up if
> only they had participated willingly in previous years.


The problem is that you can't really have true objectivity when you
insist that vendors donate their products for review: this element
alone creates a source of a bias (BTW, hadn't ScubaPro also been a
'decliner' for years?).

Afterall, if every Tom, Dick and Harry with a webpage (a public presence
as an independent, unbiased evaluator), the world's manufacturers would
clearly go out of business providing free 'evaluation' goods to all of
them, instead of making each of these businesses pay their own way.


From a business perspective, let's face realities here: to buy a dozen
pairs of fins for a test would run less than $2K.

That's too much for Tom/Dick/Harry, but for Rodale's, that's a drop in
the bucket: a recent Audit Bureau of Circulations report, Rodale's
Scuba Diving had a monthly paid circulation of 186,000 and a total
readership of more than 1 million (BTW, they also report that Scuba
Diving readers have an average household income of $121,000).

So to spend an extra $2K for review gear for each and every issue works
out to a per-magazine cost of 13 cents/year, or 2 cents per reader-year.


Considering that it costs them significantly more than this to mail out
each "subscription will lapse 6 [5, 4, 3] months from now" reminder, it
is quite transparent where their business priorities really lie.


-hh

" H. Huntzinger" wrote

> Afterall, if every Tom, Dick and Harry with a webpage (a public presence
> as an independent, unbiased evaluator), the world's manufacturers would
> clearly go out of business providing free 'evaluation' goods to all of
> them, instead of making each of these businesses pay their own way.

This does not wash. The fact is, products that are highly rated by any
testing agency sell better than those that are not. It is not at all clear
that the world's manufacturers would suffer any adverse financial effect at
all. What is clear is that those that submitted the best products would
gain market share at the expense of those that could not, or would not
compete. I don't see the downside.

> So to spend an extra $2K for review gear for each and every issue works
> out to a per-magazine cost of 13 cents/year, or 2 cents per reader-year.

It's not an extra $2k, is it? Fins are one of many items the company tests.
They test BCDs, regulators, knives, lights, just about everything you can
think of related to diving and a lot of things that aren't all that closely
related.

Lee