Force Fins forces Rodale's Scuba Diving to pay for scuba equipment ratings scam

De Valois,

I just reread the article at CDNN and I don't see any distortions,
misrepresentations or lies. And now, you are distorting my words. What more
are you being "led to understand"?

Susanne Chess
Force Fin

"de Valois" <devalois@nailedandused.com> wrote in message
news:bp3br30j84@drn.newsguy.com...
> Force Fin left this mess on Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:08:13 GMT for The Way to
clean
> up:
> >
> >Yes and no. Four of the five original causes of action were dismissed on
a
> >technicality. The judge chose to apply the one year statute of
limitations
> >for defamation to all causes of action except the breach of contract. The
> >actions about which we complained spanned years.
> >
>
> Not from what I'm led to understand. You attempted to get a "reward" from
them,
> they failed to pay it, you sued. That's hardly "spanning years," now is
it?
>
> >I take it that you picked up that information from Dane Farnum's
statement.
> >Did you notice that he now describes the tests as the "only comparative"
> >instead of "objective and unbiased"?
> >
> >Truth Prevailed and that's a win for everyone.
> >
>
> Including Rodale's, I note.
>
> Here's the thing, Susanne...Scuba Booby only reported half the story, and
that's
> what gets me about this. People are swallowing his line, and gee, maybe
it's
> because they *want* Rodale's to lose?
>
> Tao te Carl
> "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
>
> (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass
question
> here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
>

"Force Fin" <info@forcefin.com> wrote in message
news:Higtb.893$sb4.661@newsread2.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
> Dan,
>
> Phew! How do you get those measurements at depth? And I said that I found
> free diving fins elegant.
Hi Suzanne,
Careful, someone will repeat this as saying you like freediving fins :-
As to the measurement of HR, I have a Polar 720i heart rate
monitor---awesome gadget, I bought it for cycling, but its good to 60 feet
deep and will download to my PC afterward.

>
> When this whole mess landed me in the hospital, I maintained an oxygen
> absorption level of 98%. That means my cardiovascular system is in very
good
> shape. My personal preference is the Original Force Fin. I don't recommend
> them for every customer who calls. Like you, Bob as of late is preferring
> his Excellerating Force Fins.
>
> I find the customers who are happiest scuba diving with the Original Force
> Fin are either those in poor shape as you choose to pigeonhole, or those
of
> an elite level -- the two extremes. We make plenty of Force Fin variations
> for those in between.
>
> With respect to elite divers and swimmers, we find that they use cues
other
> than the resistence or drag of their fins -- your fitness workload, Dan --
> as their measurement of forward momentum. An elite swimmer is going to
feel
> more comfortable with a swimmers kick. They can measure their forward
> momentum or the thrust output of their fin blade by how they're moving,
not
> by how they are working.

Ahhh, lets use the experience of forward speed through the water--as
measured by how fast the bottom goes by....that does not make me sound so
myopic



>
> I personally believe that kicking your fin should be easy. When scuba
diving
> there are too many other things to enjoy and consider than how to kick
your
> fins. A low amplitude, wide stride kick is an adaptation of your kick for
> your fins, just as a frog kick is an adaptation for optimizing Jet Fins.
> Sure you can be very efficient once adapted, but why suggest that everyone
> go through the process?
>

And in my last post, I did allude to this---I am aware some people will be
comfortable with the big amplitude kicks, and some will not.


Regards,
Dan V


> Love ya,
>
> Susanne Chess
> Force Fin
>
>
>
>
>
> "Dan Volker" <dvolker@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:%%8tb.7966$rV.5284@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> >
> > "Force Fin" <info@forcefin.com> wrote in message
> > news:Xj8tb.406$sb4.157@newsread2.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
> > > You know Dan, the reason you like free diving fins isn't just their
> > surface
> > > area. Its the same reason I like Original Force Fins when diving in a
> > > current.
> > >
> > > When someone kicks a pair of free diving fins, the angle of the blade
> > > relevant to the direction of travel stays oriented to best take
> advantage
> > of
> > > the water flow. Their simply too long to pull perpendicular to the
> > direction
> > > of travel. The design of the Force Fin blade, as well as the design of
> the
> > > other fins in our portfolio that you do like keep properly oriented to
> > your
> > > direction of travel too.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Susanne Chess
> > > Force Fin
> > >
> >
> > Susanne,
> > After trying your more advanced Force Fins, I have come to the
realization
> > that they represent an entirely different way to push yourself through
the
> > water. For many people, this may be a better way than with traditional
> fins.
> > For the subset of the population which is highly fit, and who can
quickly
> > feel comfortable with the large amplitude, slow frequency kick style you
> use
> > with freediving fins, I still believe this is the best way to go---and a
> way
> > Force fin can evolve into, with its own freediving fin, as Bob has
> > demonstrated with prototypes.
> > For people who do not find it natural to use a large amplitude, slow
> > frequency kicks, and prefer instead a more rapid, low amplitude flutter,
> the
> > Force fin offerings, in their advanced fins, are outstanding.
> >
> > I still hate the idea of the original Force fin, because it caters to a
> > person with such low muscle power and low fitness---by way of its
> > requirement for very rapid turnover and very little thrust result--but
> with
> > almost no torque required----this is a fin ideal for a 400 pound person,
> who
> > might be better off watching TV and eating Pizza and ice cream with Coca
> > cola. Maybe I am exagerating too much here, but I still see this as a
> crutch
> > for someone who should become more fit, rather than re-shape the world
> into
> > their own conception of lazyness. Your other models begin to raise the
> > fitness bar with their capabilities, allowing normal divers to match
their
> > fitness with a model ideal for them by Force fin. No one else in the
Fin
> > world, other than a few tiny freedive fin companies the average consumer
> > will never hear of or find, have been smart enough to do that, and for
> > this, I commend you guys.
> >
> > As to the perpendicular to current issue....... it sounds good, but the
> > "high end" freedive fin "alternative" benefit, is that you can go
> through
> > the dive making one big push, followed by a huge long glide, then one
more
> > big push, then one more long glide----a streamlined diver can have
awesome
> > air consumption from this type of mechanics, since it allows a very low
> > heart rate at an averaged speed normal to most divers---this the result
of
> > much gliding. I could keep my heart rate in the low 60's, with most
divers
> > at their comfortable pace, using a fin like the Omer C4. And there are
> some
> > divers I could dive with where I could stay in the high 50's. My resting
> > pulse is 48 to 50bpm, and my max heart rate is 204, aerobic zone is 157
to
> > 188, just to put this low heart rate at diving pace in perspective. The
> low
> > heart rate from very low kick turnover, translates into very slow
> breathing
> > and very low air consumption. If I use trashed fins, like my old pair of
> > Omer Tuna Comps, the efficiency is so low that they are not terribly
> > competitive in this example. Their is a requirement that the fin retains
> its
> > optimal flex charicteristics, and can "return" power optimally after
each
> > kick.
> > This is the basic concept freedivers enjoy to perform breath hold
> dives--the
> > kick and glide, utilizing a very low heart rate ( which allows long
> periods
> > between breaths if required by a freediver--for the scuba diver, it just
> > allows a much smaller demand for air).
> >
> > I am still anxious to try the Force Fin freediving fin---whenever they
> > finally become available !!!!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dan Volker
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > "Dan Volker" <dvolker@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > news:CxPsb.465$oo.57@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> > > >
> > > > "boatlover" <boatlover1971@yahoo.com.hk> wrote in message
> > > > news:bp0edv$r9$1@news.hgc.com.hk...
> > > > > Hi Dan,
> > > > >
> > > > > How are you?( I am Casey, the guy who ask about split
> > fins
> > > &
> > > > > strong current : )
> > > > > I have bought a Cressi Gara 3000 but I couldn't find
a
> > pair
> > > > of
> > > > > free diving fins for my girl friend because her feet are too small
> > > without
> > > > > size. Anyway, have you try one of those force fin, are they good
> > enough
> > > to
> > > > > swim against current? Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Casey
> > > > > 13 Nov. 2003
> > > >
> > > > Hi Casey,
> > > > Good choice on the fins for you. How are you liking them ?
> > > >
> > > > Your girlfriend may be able to use a larger bootie, available from
> > > freedive
> > > > catalogs or custom wetsuit makers like "Aquatic Wetsuits". The
> freedive
> > > fin
> > > > neoprene socks are available up to 5mm and even 6 mm, which means a
> size
> > 6
> > > > women's foot may fit nicely into a size 40 (European) freedive fin.
> > > > My girlfriend Sandra has size 7 feet, and uses one or 2 pairs of
white
> > > > athletic socks--and a 2 mm neoprene sock ( the kind diveshops
usually
> > > sell).
> > > > This has her very happy with her size 40 ( American size 8 men's)
> > Picasso
> > > > Black Team freedive fins.
> > > >
> > > > The athletic socks can work pretty well, if you can get past the
look
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Force Fins.....I have tried them extensively. I would say much
better
> > than
> > > > Twinjets or other split fins, but not as good as "real" freedive
fins.
> > > > The way I see Force fins, is that Bob Evans has created many
different
> > > > models of fins, and each one is best used by a person with a given
> level
> > > of
> > > > fitness--or lack of fitness. This was a very smart thing for Bob to
> do,
> > > > since divers come in MANY different fitness levels...... The
original
> > > Force
> > > > Fin is best for the diver who has a heart condition, is morbidly
> obese,
> > > and
> > > > is in general, at a very low level of fitness. There are MANY divers
> > like
> > > > this, even many instructors. But Force fin has many other models
that
> > > allow
> > > > "more water" to be pushed with each kick ( and with progressively
> better
> > > > levels of fitness, this is highly desirable) , and as you go to
their
> > more
> > > > advanced models, they do have some fins that can allow even a diver
> with
> > > > "elite level fitness", to feel he or she is not at a disadvantage (
> > which
> > > > is how this same diver would feel with twin jets or Apollos on, in
a
> > > cross
> > > > current in Boynton).
> > > >
> > > > I still like freedive fins best, but some of the Force Fins are much
> > > better
> > > > than most other fins on the market. Fit will not be a problem with
> them,
> > > and
> > > > they are very easy to use. You will need to get her the most
advanced
> > > > model--the ones with the biggest fin surface. They have a new model
> now
> > > > which is very much like a freedive fin--you might try this one.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Dan V
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:50:34 -0800, "Scott" <scottk@localaxes.com>
wrote:

>
>Get real, or go away.
>
>Scott
>

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaawnnnn.

PLONK!

"Slow Death" <123@bioforus.uv> wrote in message
news:2aa4ed34e073e50f510cf05994d2bd65@news.teranew s.com...
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:50:34 -0800, "Scott" <scottk@localaxes.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Get real, or go away.
> >
> >Scott
> >
>
> yaaaaaaaaaaaaaawnnnn.

Thank you.

Now, if you could just answer the questions, or just go away...

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:38:07 -0800, "Scott" <scottk@localaxes.com>
wrote:

>
>"Slow Death" <123@bioforus.uv> wrote in message
>news:2aa4ed34e073e50f510cf05994d2bd65@news.terane ws.com...
>> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:50:34 -0800, "Scott" <scottk@localaxes.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Get real, or go away.
>> >
>> >Scott
>> >
>>
>> yaaaaaaaaaaaaaawnnnn.
>
>Thank you.
>
>Now, if you could just answer the questions, or just go away...
>

Sorry to disappoint you bitch but you're not invited into my special
world which you shamelessly hunger for.

"Dan Volker" wrote

> Here is my analogy: A huge sewage pipe ruptures, and is spewing a ton of
> sewage per day on YOUR nice yard behind your house.
> You pretty much ignore this, for years, and then one day, a handful of
dog
> walkers begin walking by your yard, and a few allow their dogs it piss and
> shit on your yard---and you scream bloody murder about it, and threaten
the
> police, lawsuits, etc.
>
> This to me, was the issue with shore and pier fishing , along our
swimming
> beaches, and shark dives 2 to 3 miles from the beaches.

I've already acknowledge the significance of your concerns, but I repeat,
they were not the issue at the time. In the real world, if anything about
Florida politics can be considered real, you need to deal with the issue at
hand. Rarely, as in almost never, do you get a chance to change the subject
of political debate to something else, even if the something else is much
more significant.

You want to address the issue of swimming near piers, feel free to try, but
you're going to get incredible resistance. Those that depend on tourists,
aren't going to support anything that limits their access to the water, i.e.
moving the swimming areas, and those that run the piers, have their own
vested financial interest. Divers, as a group, simply don't care much.
Nothing done relative to feeding sharks, on purpose or as a byproduct of
fishing from a pier, is going to have much of an effect on us.

> If the state wanted to end the danger, they should deal with the big
threat
> first--the shore and pier fishing at swimming beaches. If that disappears,
> then it would be valid to raise concerns about the shark feeding miles
away
> from the beach.

The answer is in the question. "If the state wanted to end the danger . . .
" This state wanted to address tourist fears, nothing more, nothing less.
They met their goal at the expense of a very small number of dive operators
who, frankly, had no real basis for fighting. Dive operator feeding of
sharks, while not a particularly big deal, is worse for the sharks than not
feeding them. If done in the same place, day after day, it does affect the
distribution of the sharks, changing things not only for them, but for every
other creature in the area the concentrate in, and it does condition them to
lose their fear of people and associate people with food, i.e. bring people
and sharks into more frequent, close proximity. The only positive aspects
to shark feeding are:
1. The dive operator can make a lot of money that he would otherwise not
get.
2. The publicity does slightly improve the image of sharks . . . until there
is a rash of attacks, whatever an attack may be, which is exactly what was
happening at the time of the legislation. A few professional production
companies can, and do, provide an even greater image benefit without the
same level of perceived risk.
Compared to the pressure from the tourist industry, the shark feeders never
had a chance, but they came a lot closer than I ever would have expected.
This entire issue was one that, in the opinion of most participants, did not
need to be addressed. Once it was, there really was only one possible
outcome.

> Fear of imminent attacks to swimmers was the cause of the law--not a few
> divers who had concerns--even if they were valid.

As far as I know, the only divers that were concerned with anything personal
were those that were about to be excluded from the hunting sites they wanted
to retain. One of the biggest problems was the spearfishing group who saw,
correctly in my opinion, that the feeding operations were trying to shut
them out of areas they traditionally fished in for the sole benefit of the
shark feeding operators. It should surprise nobody that they reacted
strongly.

Lee

"Force Fin" wrote

> I personally believe that kicking your fin should be easy. When scuba
diving
> there are too many other things to enjoy and consider than how to kick
your
> fins. A low amplitude, wide stride kick is an adaptation of your kick for
> your fins, just as a frog kick is an adaptation for optimizing Jet Fins.

My take on this is very different. The slower, longer kick is the standard
which most of us learned long before fins were particularly efficient.
Anything else, including a more rapid kick characteristic of the split fins
and, apparently the Force Fins, is an adaptation to the fin's different
functional aspects. In my personal opinion, your question below is a good
one, but applied to the wrong fin.

> Sure you can be very efficient once adapted, but why suggest that everyone
> go through the process?

Regarding Jet Fins, the frog kick is not an adaptation of otimizing them.
It is an adaptation for preventing them, or any other fin, from silting out
confined spaces. The frog kick is not an optimal method of propulsion
except where silt is an issue.

Lee

"Sven" <probably_A_homo@mail.grenander.com> wrote absolutely nothing of
value in message news:dbf41a9dcc344889bb89c14003020492@news.teranew s.com...

> >Thank you.
> >
> >Now, if you could just answer the questions, or just go away...
> >
>
> Sorry to disappoint you bitch but you're not invited into my special
> world which you shamelessly hunger for.

LOL!

Nothing like the bravery displayed by an anonymous poster calling people
sophomoric names.

I hunger for nothing you have in your special world, little man.

Is that "short bus" special?

"de Valois" wrote in message
> Interesting point, but when I buy ski gear, I've read up on all the new
> developments and techniques in gear making, and then go to my local ski
shop,
> look at the lines, and decide what I'm going to try out. Then I rent those
in
> demo model, and try those out.

Really? When I want ski gear, I go to a mountain and look for the
Manufacturer's Reps vans parked at the bottom. That way, I get to try each
ski on the same snow and day. Snow varies, dives vary- the ocean doesn't.

Irrelevant for the true point of this discussion, but maybe that's why your
skiing hasn't improved :)

>
> I did the same thing with dive gear. I assume I'm not alone. An LDS should
let
> you test out gear you want to buy, at least a demo model. But you'll note,
I
> still want to be informed before I go and rent.

I think that's relevant for a mask or fins. I'm with Volker on the fin
issue.

At this point, I can simply look at a BC and tell if it will work for me.
For a newbie, even a "test dive" wouldn't tell them a thing.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 07:22:02 -0800, "Scott" <scottk@localaxes.com>
wrote:

>"Sven" <probably_A_homo@mail.grenander.com> wrote absolutely nothing of
>value in message news:dbf41a9dcc344889bb89c14003020492@news.teranew s.com...
>
>> >Thank you.
>> >
>> >Now, if you could just answer the questions, or just go away...
>> >
>>
>> Sorry to disappoint you bitch but you're not invited into my special
>> world which you shamelessly hunger for.
>
>LOL!
>
>Nothing like the bravery displayed by an anonymous poster calling people
>sophomoric names.
>
>I hunger for nothing you have in your special world, little man.
>
>Is that "short bus" special?
>

No it's the dirty cock in your crack whore mother's mouth. Do a
rec.scuba search on "Scott". It's not a nice trip. You are a loser.