BSAC & Regulator Donating : A Statement

Hi All

As promised I have been seeking clarification on this issue. The following
is a statement from the National Diving Officer of the BSAC -

==============================================
The BSAC's position on AAS is that as stated in our current Diver training
materials - we do not teach donate/take of the primary DV. With queries that
have been raised and some people known to be adding/replacing their own
individual preferences to that training, is obviously a matter that needs
serious consideration and discussion. To do this without consultation with
other agencies would be foolhardy as diver training, whatever agency a diver
trains through, they follow more or less the same skill procedures. When
that process is completed a statement will be issued to our members that
clarifies the position.

We cannot 'ban' divers from using a particular method if they so choose, we
do not dictate what equipment configurations should be worn but, as a
training and diving organisation we have to set out our training standards
as well as recommendations regarding diving practise and expect that our
members adhere to those. Our prime concern is that of safety and safety
considerations to underpin an adventurous sport covering a broad spectrum of
diving interest.
==============================================

I hope that the above clarifies the current situation, I am afraid that I
cannot elaborate or comment on the above as a more complete statement is
currently under preparation and I have no knowledge of this work-in-progress
document.

Kind Regards

Keith Lawrence
BSAC Council Member
mailto:keith.lawrence@bsac.com

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 12:47:42 -0000, "Keith Lawrence"
<false@nospam.com> wrote:

>Hi All
>
>As promised I have been seeking clarification on this issue. The following
>is a statement from the National Diving Officer of the BSAC -
>
>==============================================
>The BSAC's position on AAS is that as stated in our current Diver training
>materials - we do not teach donate/take of the primary DV. With queries that
>have been raised and some people known to be adding/replacing their own
>individual preferences to that training, is obviously a matter that needs
>serious consideration and discussion. To do this without consultation with
>other agencies would be foolhardy as diver training, whatever agency a diver
>trains through, they follow more or less the same skill procedures. When
>that process is completed a statement will be issued to our members that
>clarifies the position.
>
>We cannot 'ban' divers from using a particular method if they so choose, we
>do not dictate what equipment configurations should be worn but, as a
>training and diving organisation we have to set out our training standards
>as well as recommendations regarding diving practise and expect that our
>members adhere to those. Our prime concern is that of safety and safety
>considerations to underpin an adventurous sport covering a broad spectrum of
>diving interest.
>==============================================
>
>I hope that the above clarifies the current situation, I am afraid that I
>cannot elaborate or comment on the above as a more complete statement is
>currently under preparation and I have no knowledge of this work-in-progress
>document.
>

Keith

When are revision to the Sports Diver lesson Gas Planning and Systems
being released?

When are the new guidelines saying that an Air2 is not suitable for
training with being released?

Pete

Pete
diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk

"Pete Melbourne" <psmvsl@yahoo.com> wrote ...

> When are revision to the Sports Diver lesson Gas Planning and Systems
> being released?

Please provide the references where you think that these are incorrect and I
will pass them on.

> When are the new guidelines saying that an Air2 is not suitable for
> training with being released?

By definition (same problem) I suspect that a single reg + Air2 would be
deemed inappropriate for training (and for actually diving with IMHO!), I
would hope that the final guidelines cover such matters.

Regards

Keith L

"Keith Lawrence" <false@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<3fbe69ae$0$52884$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk> ...
> "Pete Melbourne" <psmvsl@yahoo.com> wrote ...
>
> > When are revision to the Sports Diver lesson Gas Planning and Systems
> > being released?
>
> Please provide the references where you think that these are incorrect and I
> will pass them on.

Cheers Keith,

Being careful not to shoot the messanger here, I think ST5.10 will need changing.

cya
Rob

"Rob Lucas" <RobLucas1972@hotmail.com> wrote ...

> > Please provide the references where you think that these are incorrect
and I
> > will pass them on.

> Cheers Keith,

> Being careful not to shoot the messanger here, I think ST5.10 will need
changing.

Why? ST5 in itself is a discussion of the numerous different kit
configurations available and gives the advantages and disadvantages of each.
I can't see why that should need changing in the light of Lizzie's
statement.

Of more importance and concern is OS2.10, the teaching of AAS - this
specifies the AAS technique to be taught on BSAC courses. All that is being
said is that's what's in the book, that's what must be taught. No training
agency that I am aware of allows you to scrap and ignore part of it's
documented training scheme and replace it with something that you personally
prefer. That's the issue here.

Regards

Keith L

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:16:56 +0000, Keith Lawrence wrote:

> said is that's what's in the book, that's what must be taught. No
> training agency that I am aware of allows you to scrap and ignore part
> of it's documented training scheme and replace it with something that
> you personally prefer. That's the issue here.

No it's not the only issue.

From your statement:

"training and diving organisation we have to set out our training
standards as well as recommendations regarding diving practise and expect
that our members adhere to those."

So it's not just training. It's also about diving practice. So if someone
dives with a setup that means they donate their primary reg and something
goes wrong, the fact that they ignored a BSAC recommendation is highly
significant. It has implications for insurance and liability issues for
the dive marshall and the DO.

It may only be a recommendation, but in many clubs, it's effectively a
ban. DOs are going to be very reluctant to go against a recommendation and
I don't blame them.

As for consultation with other agencies, Air II type devices have been
around for years. They require you to donate your primary. I don't know of
another agency that bans their use during training.

Jason

--
See http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for UK diving reports including
trips to Plymouth, Weymouth, Falmouth, Exmouth and Scapa Flow

"Keith Lawrence" <false@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3fbe096f$0$52887$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk.. .
> Hi All
>
> As promised I have been seeking clarification on this issue. The following
> is a statement from the National Diving Officer of the BSAC -
>
> ==============================================
> The BSAC's position on AAS is that as stated in our current Diver training
> materials - we do not teach donate/take of the primary DV. With queries
that
> have been raised and some people known to be adding/replacing their own
> individual preferences to that training, is obviously a matter that needs
> serious consideration and discussion. To do this without consultation with
> other agencies would be foolhardy as diver training, whatever agency a
diver
> trains through, they follow more or less the same skill procedures. When
> that process is completed a statement will be issued to our members that
> clarifies the position.
>
> We cannot 'ban' divers from using a particular method if they so choose,
we
> do not dictate what equipment configurations should be worn but, as a
> training and diving organisation we have to set out our training standards
> as well as recommendations regarding diving practise and expect that our
> members adhere to those. Our prime concern is that of safety and safety
> considerations to underpin an adventurous sport covering a broad spectrum
of
> diving interest.
> ==============================================
>
> I hope that the above clarifies the current situation, I am afraid that I
> cannot elaborate or comment on the above as a more complete statement is
> currently under preparation and I have no knowledge of this
work-in-progress
> document.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Keith Lawrence
> BSAC Council Member
> mailto:keith.lawrence@bsac.com
>
>
>
>
>

I've been following this group for a while now, since it started in fact.
And as a Non-BSAC member I find the whole muddle amusing, almost.

As I see it the BSAC statement above states "The BSAC's position on AAS is
that as stated in our current Diver training
materials - we do not teach donate/take of the primary DV"

Which means that Donation of the Primary is not part of the basic curriculum
of the dive courses. however this as I gather from the BSAC methods is the
BASIC course as given in the dive training manual. yet the BSAC manual
states what must be taught as a mandatory minimum and doesn't list what must
NOT be taught.

My take is that Joe Bloggs, teaching Mr & Mrs Smith can during the basic OOA
and AAS portions of the lessons say
"Now what I am going to show you with a long hose and primary AS is not part
of the BSAC course, but there are enough divers out there with long
primaries and short alternates that at some point you will likely be buddied
with one whether they be GUE/DIR or otherwise. For safetys sake it is best
to know how to recieve/take an air source from these divers."

and go on to teach donation and receiving/taking the long hose from the
other divers mouth, GUE/DIR/TECHIE style.

Just my 0.02 NZD

rhys

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:16:56 -0000, "Keith Lawrence"
<false@nospam.com> wrote:

>Why? ST5 in itself is a discussion of the numerous different kit
>configurations available and gives the advantages and disadvantages of each.
>I can't see why that should need changing in the light of Lizzie's
>statement.

"we do not teach donate/take of the primary DV" - By showing them a
techinique that is based on taking of the primary DV we are breaking
that directive

Do we have a reason why we have suddenly outlawed a way of configuring
kit that have been in use for 30 years?

>Of more importance and concern is OS2.10, the teaching of AAS - this
>specifies the AAS technique to be taught on BSAC courses. All that is being
>said is that's what's in the book, that's what must be taught. No training
>agency that I am aware of allows you to scrap and ignore part of it's
>documented training scheme and replace it with something that you >personally
>prefer. That's the issue here.

No the issue here is just about all the experienced divers in our club
dive breathing the long hose, but with about half of the others using
Air2's or similar. We have always taught conventionally until a diver
is qualified then taught them as an extra how to safely buddy one of
the those experienced divers. Because we can now no longer teach them
we have at a stroke wiped out the ability to take inexperienced divers
in with them.

Pete
diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk

Keith Lawrence wrote:
> I hope that the above clarifies the current situation...

I'm sorry Keith but that doesn't clarify anything, nor does it address the
original point. It's a classic piece of bureaucratic double-speak...

Al.

"Alasdair Allan" <aa@ukrecscuba.org.uk> wrote ...

> I'm sorry Keith but that doesn't clarify anything, nor does
> it address the original point. It's a classic piece of
> bureaucratic double-speak...

Oh do go on with one of your anti-BSAC rants Al, I haven't had a good laugh
for a while.

K