PADI Adventure Diver? Adventure Dives

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:49:03 -0000, "CAS"
<calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com> wrote:

>"david" <im@fedup.com> wrote in message
>news:bpns9l$hp6$1@titan.btinternet.com...
>> > > Knowing how many dives he had done
>> > > was better than Knowing his qualification.
>> > I am not neccessarily dissagreeing with you but how many dives
>constitute
>> > an"advanced diver"
>>
>> i think that is the point the name advanced dive does not match the
>> card
>>
>>
>
>The term Advanced Diver in its own right means nothing.

Actually it means a pretty senior qualification within BSAC...

>The fact of the
>matter is that the certification we are discussing is "Advanced OPEN WATER
>Diver" - that is an Open Water Diver with more training and supervised
>experience than a standard Open Water Diver. Nothing more, nothing less.
>
>And lets face it, who is actually impressed by someone calling themselves an
>Advanced Open Water Diver? Non-divers, that's who...
>
>CAS

-------------------------------------
York BSAC Web Page:
http://website.lineone.net/~york_bsac

>
> The term Advanced Diver in its own right means nothing. The fact of the
> matter is that the certification we are discussing is "Advanced OPEN WATER
> Diver" - that is an Open Water Diver with more training and supervised
> experience than a standard Open Water Diver. Nothing more, nothing less.
>

No... AOW does not mean more training. It should, but for the first
day of my AOW, I think I gave more instruction to the other 2 on the
course (who were on about dive 7, and in cold water for the first
time) than the instructor did.
They'd not even (by their own admission) read the relevant chapters in
the book.

All that having AOW seems to do is make it less of a legal risk for a
guide to take me on a >18m dive, and it gives evidence that I've
completed another 5 dives of about 20 min. each, unlike the other
dives in my log book which I could have made up.

I wasn't expecting to learn much from doing the AOW course, but I was
rather shocked that two divers who would have benefited from a days
intensive 1:1 training in bouyancy control were basically dragged
through the dives with no effort being made to either improve their
skills or discourage them from diving.

Sean

"Sean Houlihane" <tshoulihane@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f5d3bb73.0311241028.5dfacfbc@posting.google.c om...
>
> No... AOW does not mean more training. It should, but for the first
> day of my AOW, I think I gave more instruction to the other 2 on the
> course (who were on about dive 7, and in cold water for the first
> time) than the instructor did.
> They'd not even (by their own admission) read the relevant chapters in
> the book.
>
> All that having AOW seems to do is make it less of a legal risk for a
> guide to take me on a >18m dive, and it gives evidence that I've
> completed another 5 dives of about 20 min. each, unlike the other
> dives in my log book which I could have made up.
>
> I wasn't expecting to learn much from doing the AOW course, but I was
> rather shocked that two divers who would have benefited from a days
> intensive 1:1 training in bouyancy control were basically dragged
> through the dives with no effort being made to either improve their
> skills or discourage them from diving.
>
> Sean

The point is that the instructor is more important than the qualification.
There are some who want to sign everybody off after a 20 min dive, and there
are the _real_ instructors who try to teach you something. Some people want
to go through the PADI system paying a lot of money for guided dives which
give them a pretty piece of plastic but I for one am paying for some
education and training. Why did you do the AOW if you wern't expecting to
get anything out of it? Sounds like a waste of money to me.

Keith

> rather shocked that two divers who would have benefited from a days
> intensive 1:1 training in bouyancy control were basically dragged
> through the dives with no effort being made to either improve their
> skills or discourage them from diving.
>
> Sean

I don't think your experience is all that unusual.
I dived with a guy in aus who had brand new kit, free air fills
and had just passed his AOW but he still could not dive.
The problem with a student who buys all new kit while on a course
it oftern helps gain a pass mark (cant fail AOW i know)

the thing is on this same dive there were flowers laid on rocks by entry
point for a driver who had not surfaced. (1 week before)
Same shop same bad instruction.

I dont use them any more.

Regards David

"Nick Eden" <null@localhost.com> wrote in message
news:r7j4svof07j7nc3ailoonhg0hrfjk0cfgm@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:49:03 -0000, "CAS"
> <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >"david" <im@fedup.com> wrote in message
> >news:bpns9l$hp6$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> >> > > Knowing how many dives he had done
> >> > > was better than Knowing his qualification.
> >> > I am not neccessarily dissagreeing with you but how many dives
> >constitute
> >> > an"advanced diver"
> >>
> >> i think that is the point the name advanced dive does not match
the
> >> card
> >>
> >>
> >
> >The term Advanced Diver in its own right means nothing.
>
> Actually it means a pretty senior qualification within BSAC...

Sorreeee... in the context of PADI qualifications.... blah de blah

CAS
--
PADI AOW? Get Rescue Training on UKRS Course #1 -
http://divesite.calumscott.me.uk/ukrs/rescue_diver_2004
Temperature @ Stoney? Find it or share it @
http://stoneytemps.calumscott.me.uk/

"Sean Houlihane" <tshoulihane@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f5d3bb73.0311241028.5dfacfbc@posting.google.c om...
> >
> > The term Advanced Diver in its own right means nothing. The fact of the
> > matter is that the certification we are discussing is "Advanced OPEN
WATER
> > Diver" - that is an Open Water Diver with more training and supervised
> > experience than a standard Open Water Diver. Nothing more, nothing
less.
> >
>
> No... AOW does not mean more training. It should, but for the first
> day of my AOW, I think I gave more instruction to the other 2 on the
> course (who were on about dive 7, and in cold water for the first
> time) than the instructor did.
> They'd not even (by their own admission) read the relevant chapters in
> the book.

That is not the fault of the course, that is the fault of the instructor
(for being quite obviously crap) and the students (for not taking it
seriously - home study is home study and should be completed if that is the
way the course is being conducted).

> All that having AOW seems to do is make it less of a legal risk for a
> guide to take me on a >18m dive, and it gives evidence that I've
> completed another 5 dives of about 20 min. each, unlike the other
> dives in my log book which I could have made up.

Yup, because as part of your AOW you have done the "deep" adventure dive and
gone into the risks and risk management of deeper diver a little more than
you had previously. It also (depending on your elective dives) gives you
more experience (OK.. AN experience) of different types of diving,
personally I did drysuit (because I had just bought one and never dived in
one), Night and Wreck (although that wasn't particularly useful - I'd have
been better picking something else and doing the full wreck speciality...)

So not just 5 dives - you've gone deeper than your previous 18m "limit" with
instruction, you've proved that you can perform basic navigation tasks
(rather than just following a compass out and back), that you have
experience of diving in a drysuit (including righting techniques when your
feet fill with air!), that you have experienced a night dive and that you
have visited a wreck and not done anything stupid while you were there...

> I wasn't expecting to learn much from doing the AOW course, but I was
> rather shocked that two divers who would have benefited from a days
> intensive 1:1 training in bouyancy control were basically dragged
> through the dives with no effort being made to either improve their
> skills or discourage them from diving.

I wasn't expecting to learn much from mine either...

....but I did. Sounds like you picked the wrong dive centre. I've said it
before many times and I've just read that Keith Manning has just said it -
the quality of any course from any agency is only ever as good as the
instructor. On top of that you get out what you put in.

So the numpties on your course put in zero effort prior to the course
conducted by a crap instructor...

....tell me what outcome you would be expecting in this circumstance (and
we'll leave out "dead divers"...)

CAS
--
PADI AOW? Get Rescue Training on UKRS Course #1 -
http://divesite.calumscott.me.uk/ukrs/rescue_diver_2004
Temperature @ Stoney? Find it or share it @
http://stoneytemps.calumscott.me.uk/

Sean Houlihane <tshoulihane@hotmail.com> skriver:
> No... AOW does not mean more training. It should, but for the first
> day of my AOW, I think I gave more instruction to the other 2 on the

The mian thing, find a good shop instructor thats everything to dive
courses. On my AOW i thing we had 8 to 9 hours of classroom teaching.
For the deep dive we hade abouve one hour with the main instructor,
then one more hour with an PADI/IANTI instructor to give nitrox basics and
howto alalyse gases and other things that could be good as we were
doing that dive on nitrox. He had also prepared several different gas
mixes for us to alalyse so we should getinto always checking our own
gas, marking our own tank. I learned a loot on my six dives for the
advance open water course. (Yes I was givven one dive with the
instructor alone before the course so that I could make adations to
drysuite and diveing in could water that I hadn't done for 10 years.)
But I didn't have any clue about the differences before I took the
courcem I was just lucky and did it during the right sesson. When they
had litle les to do and a loot more time.

/ Anders
--
http://anders.arnholm.nu/ Keep on Balping

"CAS" <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com> wrote

> So not just 5 dives - you've gone deeper than your previous 18m "limit" with
> instruction, you've proved that you can perform basic navigation tasks
> (rather than just following a compass out and back), that you have
> experience of diving in a drysuit (including righting techniques when your
> feet fill with air!), that you have experienced a night dive and that you
> have visited a wreck and not done anything stupid while you were there...
>
Didn't quite break my previous 'deepest' dive, already done some
'real' compass work, already lost a buddy in UK vis, and dived with a
drysuit before - so I've not really gained any new experiences, just
more time in the water... I'll grant that numpties will have done new
things, but I'm not sure that they learnt much, other than that they
are now safe to dive to 30m...

> So the numpties on your course put in zero effort prior to the course
> conducted by a crap instructor...
>
> ...tell me what outcome you would be expecting in this circumstance (and
> we'll leave out "dead divers"...)
>

Yes, I did save £50 by picking the cheaper of my local schools, and
maybe I learnt stuff I didn't notice (like a little about diving with
and guiding numpties), but I was concerned that there seemed to be
very little effort made to impress on the numpties that the sort of
diving that they were moving towards was getting quite serious. No
review of the use of tables, for example. They seemed intent on
progressing towards diving UK wrecks, after doing a wreck course. I
assume they'll stay with the same school, maybe get a better
instructor, maybe not - but I can't help feeling they'd do much better
in a club environment where there isn't so much pressure on reaching
fairly arbitary targets...

Sean

> more time in the water... I'll grant that numpties will have done new
> things, but I'm not sure that they learnt much, other than that they
> are now safe to dive to 30m...
Who said they are safe then don't believe what is on the plastic card

on TV the other night someone managed to get a driving licence for a blind
MP ????? when is he going to be safe to drive.
identity fraud

"Sean Houlihane" <tshoulihane@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f5d3bb73.0311251019.4965fee2@posting.google.c om...


> Didn't quite break my previous 'deepest' dive, already done some
> 'real' compass work, already lost a buddy in UK vis, and dived with a
> drysuit before - so I've not really gained any new experiences, just
> more time in the water... I'll grant that numpties will have done new
> things, but I'm not sure that they learnt much, other than that they
> are now safe to dive to 30m...

I'll ask the question again;

Why did you do the AOW if you wern't expecting to
get anything out of it?

You keep putting down the "numpties" who were beginners doing what is
essentially the next step up from a beginners course, and yet you admit to
going into a course that in your opinion was beneath you. Maybe you were the
one on the wrong course.

Just out of interest, how many dives did you have before you started the
course?


> Yes, I did save £50 by picking the cheaper of my local schools, and
> maybe I learnt stuff I didn't notice (like a little about diving with
> and guiding numpties), but I was concerned that there seemed to be
> very little effort made to impress on the numpties that the sort of
> diving that they were moving towards was getting quite serious. No
> review of the use of tables, for example.

If you have concerns, then let PADI quality control know. www.padi.com for
contact information.

>They seemed intent on
> progressing towards diving UK wrecks, after doing a wreck course.

It sounds like they know their limitations.


Keith
> Sean