UKRS Web Site: Pony bottles article

I was having a browse through the articles on the UKRS web site the other day and discovered
that there isn't anything on one of the most popular topics of discussion; pony bottles and
what benefits they bring the average Uk diver. After speaking to Keith I have *ahem*
volunteered to collect a number of comments from past posts and write them up in a similar
format to the drysuits and computers articles.

So, if you want to add any comments on pony bottles then this is the thread to add them to.
Any comments on their usefulness, the pony vs twinset debate, what you can use a 3l cylinder
for when you start using twins, etc. would be very welcome. (I hope the fire proof undies
aren't needed though ).

Thanks,

Nick

"beanie" <nospam@diving.ukdiver.com> wrote in message
news:TMPNb.2592$pD3.60@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "Nick Bown" <nbown@nospamthanks.ixcg.com> wrote in message
> news:4007c200$0$244$fa0fcedb@lovejoy.zen.co.uk...
> > I was having a browse through the articles on the UKRS web site the
other
> day and discovered
> > that there isn't anything on one of the most popular topics of
discussion;
> pony bottles and
> > what benefits they bring the average Uk diver. After speaking to Keith I
> have *ahem*
> > volunteered to collect a number of comments from past posts and write
them
> up in a similar
> > format to the drysuits and computers articles.
> >
> > So, if you want to add any comments on pony bottles then this is the
> thread to add them to.
> > Any comments on their usefulness, the pony vs twinset debate, what you
can
> use a 3l cylinder
> > for when you start using twins, etc. would be very welcome. (I hope the
> fire proof undies
> > aren't needed though ).
> >
>
> 200*3 = 600
> @20 slm = 30 mins
> therefore
> @10m15mins
> @20m 10mins
> @30m 7.5mins
> @40m 6 mins
> @50m 5mins
>
> could do some pretty graphs show duration over depth - maybe at differnt
> breathing rates

One of the nice Journos at Diver did something along these lines a few
months ago - nice graphs and tables. Also went through a few tips and stuff
for pony mounting, alternative rigs etc. hang on...

http://www.divernet.com/equipment/0103bailout.htm

CAS
--
Well, we've done it... report will follow shortly at
http://divesite.calumscott.me.uk/ukrs/rescue_diver_2004
Temperature @ Stoney? Find it or share it @
http://stoneytemps.calumscott.me.uk/

> Any comments on their usefulness, the pony vs twinset debate, what you can
use a 3l cylinder
> for when you start using twins, etc. would be very welcome.

Some ideas, in no particular order:
A pony's good as an independent alternative when you're not doing anything
particularly deep or dangerous but when you want some redundancy, such as
when instructing when you can't necessarily rely on your buddy.
It's also good as an intermediate before twins if thats the way you're
going, just don't buy cheap crap regs for the pony and then they're useful
when you upgrade.
Pony's are also good if you don't have / can't carry around your own tank.
When i'm at Uni I have no way I could possibly carry around my own tank, let
alone a twinset, but using a club tank and just me carrying a pony bottle is
no problem at all - gets me some redundancy.
As I couldn't afford a twinset at the minute anyway (two tanks, mountings,
clamps, brackets, manifolds, etc, etc) a pony is a good alternative and I
won't be wasting anything - the regs can be used on a twinset, the bottle
could be used for deco or whatever, the clamp could be used for anythink,
extra tanks, umbilical torches, etc.

Obviously though twins would be preferable in many circumstances, although
for instructing and training they're unnecessary when a pony would do, and
is smaller and lighter. I see a pony as a good introduction to redundancy
and deeper safer diving, without so much of the cost.

.... and perfect for students without a car to carry tanks in! :O)

David

"David Walker" <wbsdavenews@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bu8n22$e5r$1@wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk...
> > Any comments on their usefulness, the pony vs twinset debate, what you
can
> use a 3l cylinder
> > for when you start using twins, etc. would be very welcome.
>
> Some ideas, in no particular order:
> A pony's good as an independent alternative when you're not doing anything
> particularly deep or dangerous but when you want some redundancy, such as
> when instructing when you can't necessarily rely on your buddy.
> It's also good as an intermediate before twins if thats the way you're
> going, just don't buy cheap crap regs for the pony and then they're useful
> when you upgrade.
> Pony's are also good if you don't have / can't carry around your own tank.
> When i'm at Uni I have no way I could possibly carry around my own tank,
let
> alone a twinset, but using a club tank and just me carrying a pony bottle
is
> no problem at all - gets me some redundancy.
> As I couldn't afford a twinset at the minute anyway (two tanks, mountings,
> clamps, brackets, manifolds, etc, etc) a pony is a good alternative and I
> won't be wasting anything - the regs can be used on a twinset, the bottle
> could be used for deco or whatever, the clamp could be used for anythink,
> extra tanks, umbilical torches, etc.
>
> Obviously though twins would be preferable in many circumstances, although
> for instructing and training they're unnecessary when a pony would do, and
> is smaller and lighter. I see a pony as a good introduction to redundancy
> and deeper safer diving, without so much of the cost.
>
> ... and perfect for students without a car to carry tanks in! :O)
>
woos I used to carry my 12 across Plymouth when I were a student

Uses I've put my little pony to were-

Initially alternate air source on single tank O.C diving, very soon after a 1st
stage freeflow experience at 22m, watching as my "Buddies" swim off! The Pony
and reg were my next purchase!

After getting a little experience in deco and nitrox diving on the dark side I
used my pony as a "deco stage," but in the Jesus factor mode- (Not accelerated
deco) meaning I didn't factor the high O2 into deco plans. I would run the
standard stops at 6m but breath the richer mix, giving me a greater degree of
conservatism on stops.

Since moving from the dark to the yellow one and gradually deeper, my pony
spends most of its time in the shed, I now use a 7ltr aluminium when more O.C
or semi closed circuit bailout might be needed.-


3ltr pony at 200 bar
>200*3 = 600
>@20 slm = 30 mins

>@40m 6 mins
>@50m 5mins

A little OT from 3ltr but still AAS- just adapted for more depth-

7ltr stage at 200bar
200*7 = 1400

@SAC 20ltr/min = 70min

@40m = 14min
@50m = 11.6min (a fighting chance to 6m without DCI then surface cover)

Rob H

> > ... and perfect for students without a car to carry tanks in! :O)
> >
> woos I used to carry my 12 across Plymouth when I were a student

I must just be a wimp then! :O(
To be fair, if i'm just trying to take kit in with no tanks I do it in two
goes, the only time I did it in one I had a bad back for 2 days.
Maybe dive shops should sell cars too - a vital piece of dive kit!

David

beanie wrote:
> "David Walker" wrote
>> Obviously though twins would be preferable in many circumstances,
>> although for instructing and training they're unnecessary when a
>> pony would do, and is smaller and lighter. I see a pony as a good
>> introduction to redundancy and deeper safer diving, without so much
>> of the cost.
>>
>> ... and perfect for students without a car to carry tanks in! :O)
>>
> woos I used to carry my 12 across Plymouth when I were a student

Kids <grumble><grumble> wimps

I've taken my 10L/300bar twins for a fill on a
motorbike and on the bus at different times.

Not recently admittedly but not years ago, since
I was 50.

I can't recomend growing old but I don't fancy the
alternative yet so I'm not letting it cramp my life
style. Too much diving needs doing.

<back on topic>
I bought a 3L/300bar pony when I did IANTD Advanced
Nitrox as a deco stage but rapidly relegated it to
general pony duty. These days it clips on the turtle
so I have a reg to stuff in a buddy or to blow up a
shot lift bag as otherwize it is the AutoAir and 'mix.

nigelH

Nick Bown wrote:

> I was having a browse through the articles on the UKRS web site the other
> day and discovered that there isn't anything on one of the most popular
> topics of discussion; pony bottles and what benefits they bring the
> average Uk diver. After speaking to Keith I have *ahem* volunteered to
> collect a number of comments from past posts and write them up in a
> similar format to the drysuits and computers articles.
>
> So, if you want to add any comments on pony bottles then this is the
> thread to add them to. Any comments on their usefulness, the pony vs
> twinset debate, what you can use a 3l cylinder for when you start using
> twins, etc. would be very welcome. (I hope the fire proof undies aren't
> needed though ).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nick

As a side note, anyone have a spare pony they want to sell? I know someone
that might be interested, mail me what you want for it and I will let them
know.

Danny
--
The box said windows 98 or better, so I installed Linux

Header is false, correct is Danny at danshome dot org

> So, if you want to add any comments on pony bottles then this is the
thread to add them to.

My first pony was used as an OC bail out for deeper dives. Naievely I
thought that this provided options for deco dives. It doesn't. I ditched
the 3L and went for a 12L pony - what most people call independents.

That pony is still in the garage. I now have 5 pony's and 4 of them
accompany me on every dive - 1xdil, 1xO2, 1xSuit, 1xO2Bail.

> Any comments on their usefulness, the pony vs twinset debate,

IMHO a pony is a good bail out for eveyone engaged in no-stop diving. It's
value is seriously depleted for stop dives. There of more value if an
unrealistic SAC rate is used for the calculation.

> what you can use a 3l cylinder
> for when you start using twins,

I never used it as such but quite a few put EANx into it and use it for the
6m stop on a stop dive. Personally I'd sell it - for OC you want a 7L and
for CC you want an different valve.

Cheers
Matt.

NB> So, if you want to add any comments on pony bottles then this is the
NB> thread to add them to. Any comments on their usefulness, the pony vs
NB> twinset debate, what you can use a 3l cylinder for when you start using
NB> twins, etc. would be very welcome. (I hope the fire proof undies aren't
NB> needed though ).

NB> Thanks,

My Little Pony

==============



I started using a pony as a way to be more self sufficient after being badly
let down by a buddy shortly after becoming a Sports Diver. I was also
getting involved in some UW archaeology work; being sat on the end of a 25m
survey tape in 0 vis waiting for your buddy to return somewhat focuses your
mind to the limitations of the buddy system. One other event that helped
convince me was watching a reg go into free flow when two divers started
using it during an AAS training exercise in Stoney.



I pretty much used the pony on every dive deeper than 10m. I fitted a full
size pressure gauge so I could see how much gas was in it at all times. My
main reg at the time was an Apeks TX50 and I bought a Poseidon Cycklon for
the pony. I specifically wanted a side valve as it saves any messing around
when donating or picking it up yourself. I dumped the Octo as I just can
not see any point in having more than two 2nd stages. 2nd stages can be
problematic, leaking, free flowing etc. It is also not unknown for divers
to pick up their octo rather than their pony when they have gone OOA. So I
have always thought it best to keep 2nd stages to a minimum.



I continued on my self reliance quest and started reading about tech diving
techniques. I moved the Apeks to the pony, tethering it under the chin and
used the Cyklon as my main reg and practiced donating from the mouth. Later
I moved the BC hose to the pony reg to provide some buoyancy redundancy.
There had been a couple incidents where divers had gone OOA, swapped to
their pony and either re-descended after surfacing or could not get off the
bottom. I was in a membrane suit at the time and pretty much used that
exclusively for buoyancy compensation. I have access to a compressor so it
was not difficult to make sure the cylinder was filled before each days
diving. By this time I was regularly diving the 30m range, but staying out
of deco. I did a couple or practice ascents on the pony and proved that I
could ascend normally from 30m and make about 5 minutes of stops. My
breathing rate is 8 to 10 l/min and I use 15 for planning.



I had to use the pony a couple times in anger. Once when a buddy got low on
air at 20m and a couple occasions when I had a problem with my main.



The next major change in my kit came after a stunning dive on the Pomeranian
(36m). After an oh too short 14 minute bottom time my buddy and I were sat
on our stop watching the gauge on our single 12 nudge under 50 bar. We were
pretty much thinking the same thing...time for a twinset.



We had been using single 10s for second dives so we just bought a second
10ltr cylinder each and rigged independents using twinning bands on our stab
jackets. The transition was remarkably easy because we had been diving our
ponys as a redundant system for some time. Just a matter of getting used to
the drag and boyancy adjustment. I was offered a Jetstream at a silly
price, by this time I was a big fan of Poseidon's and side valve regs so the
Octo went back on the TX50 for use on a single. Once I was certain that
twins were what I wanted I added a manifold and long hose.



With so much gas available our bottom times and deco hangs started getting
longer. By the end of the season we were regularly doing 30+ minute hangs
and decided it was time to go find out what this 'forbidden' Nitrox was all
about. So the pony came out the garage and went off for cleaning. I dug
out my old Apeks Manta side valve octopus, bought a cheap Apeks first stage
and that also went off for cleaning to be dedicated as a reg for the stage.
After the course we first started by diving Nx in the mains and using 50% as
a safety factor. We tried to reduce costs by topping off the pony with
'free' air until it was down to 21%.



I was (and still am) diving to the limit of my wallet. The costs of NX
fills in the mains was getting to me, after all I had access to free air. I
decided to go back to air in the mains and use 50% in the pony for
accelerated deco. 50% does not make a huge difference to deco times and I
was soon running the 3ltr dry on a single dive. I went back to NX in the
mains continueing to use the 3Ltr for accelerated deco. The depths were
getting even deeper so even Nx in the mains was making little difference and
when an of old 7ltr BA cylinders came along the pony was back in the garage,
this time pretty much for good.



Very shortly afterwards I signed up for Tech NX and a year or so after that
a Trimix course. I haven't used the pony for over 3 years now, the last
time was a training dive in a swimming pool when I found my old single 12
was out of test. The pony is now around 9 years old and currently on loan.
I probably should sell it but heck it's got sentimental value, it was a
major part of my developing config for 5 years.



The things I would consider as mistakes when using a pony:



Firstly putting a pony on for the 'deep' dive. Whilst adding a pony is not
rocket science it does change buoyancy and balance characteristics. You
need to get completely used to kit in shallow water and a pony is no
exception.



Second has to be adding a pony to your kit and never practicing using it.
Like any piece of diving kit a pony is only as good as your skills in using
it.



One very debateable practice is to use the pony as a source of extra air for
the dive, rather than as a redundant reserve. People who normally use a
15ltr cylinders have been known to use a 12+3 when a 15 is not available. I
certainly do not condone this but it happens fairly regularly. If you are
going to do this then do not exhaust either your main or your pony. Breathe
the 15 down to no less than 100 bar, switch to the pony and switch back to
the main before you ascend. In this case an octo on the main is essential
otherwise you may have no way to assist an OOA buddy.



A 3ltr pony is always going to get attract criticism for being an
inadequately small reserve. To make such an assessment you have to think
about what you are asking of it and what the alternative is. As a bailout a
pony is generally adequate for no deco diving down to 30m. It starts to
look limited from their but is still better than relying solely on your
buddies air supply. The few minutes of 'breathing space' may be enough to
locate your buddy and initiate air sharing without too much stress. At the
very least a pony will allow you to start the ascent in a controlled manner
and get closer to the safety of the surface. No one wants to be 10m
underwater without air but it sure beats being 35m underwater without air.



Regards

MattS