Which wing ? and a bit on twins ( long)

I'm sure this is a bit of a "here we go again" question, but if you don't
ask .....

**** Start of preamble ****
I'm only just beyond novice level, but for the 30 to 40 m
diving I seem to be doing, then a single tank isn't really enough.
By the time it's cooled a bit in the water, I've puffed up my suit a bit and
breathed a bit hard on the way down, I'm down to nearly 150 bar or whatever.
Being a reasonably prudent sort, I want to be turning back at 110 bar or so,
so that doesn't leave a lot of air for the actual dive.
I'm also carrying a pony, but am concious there's the view (which I'm
inclined to share) that it is a bit of marginal reserve.

So, I probably should be using a twin-set - more for the comfort value of
having loads of air in hand, than necessarily expecting to use two full
tanks. I'm not going to be committing to a lot of deco just yet given my
limited
experience level.

At any rate I'd need to buy a 2nd tank for the 2nd dive if I don't get
twins, so might as well carry it as reserve for the first dive - and still
have enough left for a modest 2nd dive. I also need better D-rings on my BCD
as the current ones are two few, in the wrong place and flimsy plastic, so
don't begrudge replacement of my (jacket style) BCD.

There's also a common, perhaps prevailing view that wings are better for a
variety of reasons (which I'm inclined to believe)

*****End of preample ******

**** start of wing questions *****

So to get to the point - here are some question:

The stainless backplate thing sounds good in theory, move weight off the
belt, nothing to go wrong etc.
However, the Dive-Rite transpac harness is very popular - so what are
the pros and cons of these options. I've read up on the DIR stuff, but
presumably there is another view, else they wouldn't make them?

So called "bondage" wings - again I understand the cons from the DIR
afficianados,
but I see sensible seeming divers with OMS wings, or Dive-rites, both of
which are elasticated.
Presumably there are advantages to these models as well.

What about harnesses ? The single loop of tape theory is one option, but
isn't a proper harness more comfortable ?
After all you can make a climbing harness from rope, but it's not the best
nor even a remotely sensible option.

Can you use a wing with a single tank - perhaps it depends ?

How much lift do I need for twin 12s ? presumably 50lbs odd ?
What about if I then add a 7l in the future (or should I then just buy a
bigger bladder when the time comes)

I guess I'd be looking at a Dive Rite eg Dive Rite classic with SS backplate
and "de luxe" harness at £260 odd.
Or one of the Transpac ones ?
The Halcyon equivalent at a £100 or so more - . Or perhaps something else?

By the way, do some people do without a weight belt by means of a SS
backplate, v- weights etc - or is this a daft question.

***** end of wing questions *****
***** and regarding twins *****

Using twins is said to be "different" from using a single; perhaps running
before I can walk even.
Obviously it's heavier and more of a pain on the surface, and boyancy is
more difficult since you are starting more overwieght - by the weight of the
air in the second tank at least. Is there much else to worry about ? What
can go wrong exactly ?
(I will be sussing out shutdowns and trying the eventual set-up in shallow
water first I hasten to add)

Thanks for reading (at least some of) all this lot and any advice greatfully
received.

Hywel

"Hywel Davies" <hywel@hywel-ros.freeserve.co.uk> wrote ...

> I'm sure this is a bit of a "here we go again" question, but
> if you don't ask .....

Good and sensible questions well asked IMHO. I had very similar questions
whn I switched to twins. Have you been through our site on
www.ukrecscuba.org.uk BTW? There's stuff in the FAQ on this and bits on
harness rigging etc.

> So, I probably should be using a twin-set - more for the comfort
> value of having loads of air in hand, than necessarily expecting
> to use two full tanks. I'm not going to be committing to a lot of
> deco just yet given my limited experience level.

For comfort read safety, that seems a damn good reason to me. Twins will
suit your current style of diving, just as they will if you start doing some
deco, so it's a sensible option. I use twins on all dives, over recent years
I've done bugger all deco, but the twins are still working great!

> At any rate I'd need to buy a 2nd tank for the 2nd dive
> if I don't get twins, so might as well carry it as reserve
> for the first dive - and still have enough left for a
> modest 2nd dive.

Keep the single you have as an air bank, buy separate twins and a decant
hose. If I run the twins down on the first dive I top up from the air bank
for the second. You can normally get the twins up to at least 120 BAR by
decanting 120 x 2 is more than enough for a damn good second dive.

> I also need better D-rings on my BCD as the current ones
> are two few, in the wrong place and flimsy plastic, so
> don't begrudge replacement of my (jacket style) BCD.

You do NOT need more D rings, just trust me on that. We've all been there,
or at least I have. I actually NEED two, one for the SPG, one for the light
head of the torch. What else do you need? My DSMB is behind me clipped to
the left cylinder, the torch battery is bungied to the tank, my computer,
compass and slate is on my wrist. I had D rings I never used on my harness,
I took them off.

The "where you want them" wish is also a good argument for a DIY harness.

> There's also a common, perhaps prevailing view that wings are
> better for a variety of reasons (which I'm inclined to believe)

I like them, I like the lack of clutter, I like the balance in the water.
They do flip you forward on the surface but you'll soon get the hand of
that. There is a lack of tactile feedback, you can't "feel" them like you
can with a BCD, but I haven't dived a BCD for years and I'm not going to.

> However, the Dive-Rite transpac harness is very popular - so
> what are the pros and cons of these options. I've read up on
> the DIR stuff, but presumably there is another view, else they
> wouldn't make them?

Don't waste your money. They are fussy with clips everywhere, D rings in the
wrong place, bloody expensive. You can BUILD a harness for 20 or 30 quid,
it's just as comfortable, it's customised to you. I know a few people who
have gone from DiveRite over to DIY, I've never known anybody go from DIY to
DiveRite!

> So called "bondage" wings - again I understand the cons from
> the DIR afficianados, but I see sensible seeming divers with
> OMS wings, or Dive-rites, both of which are elasticated.
> Presumably there are advantages to these models as well.

Do you NEED it? If you want to have a pose before diving they are great,
nice colours, bits everywhere, some with hoses all over the place, but as a
bit of diving kit I just don't see the point. I use a DiveRite Classic Air
Cell, so do lots of people on here. The reason for that is because they
work, they are all you need, they just do the job and do it well without the
pose factor.

> What about harnesses ? The single loop of tape theory is one
> option, but isn't a proper harness more comfortable ?
> After all you can make a climbing harness from rope, but
> it's not the best nor even a remotely sensible option.

We've done this one loads of times, normally on UKRS dives. People look at
this huge lump of metal with it's unpadded harness and they say "oooh, that
looks uncomfortable". Then they try it, with just a t-shirt on, and are
stunned at the comfort, balance and ease. Then we end up with yet another
UKRS BP + wing with DIY harness diver!

Look at our site for harness rigging info. With a DIY harness you can make
your own mind up, just try it, if it doesn't work for you then change it. My
harness is up on the site, with its clip that IMHO gives me the best of both
worlds.

> Can you use a wing with a single tank - perhaps it depends ?

You can with a Single Tank Adaptor (see site!) but the big wing for the
twins will flop around a lot. It's much better with a smaller wing, I've got
a junior wing with an ABS BP for tropical single tank stuff and pool work.

> How much lift do I need for twin 12s ? presumably 50lbs odd ?
> What about if I then add a 7l in the future (or should I then
> just buy a bigger bladder when the time comes)

Cant answer that, mine are 10's, I only every carry a 3 for deco but I have
used a 7, I had bags of lift.

> I guess I'd be looking at a Dive Rite eg Dive Rite classic with SS
> backplate and "de luxe" harness at £260 odd.

I don't know how much DR wings are now, but see www.backplates.com for the
UKRS "Nigel" plate. You'll need a file, but they are good plates and just as
good (better in some respects) than any you will find at your dive shop.

> The Halcyon equivalent at a £100 or so more - . Or perhaps
> something else?

If you want the pose factor or can't be arsed with the hassle from the DIR
purists then go for Halcyon, it's bloody good kit. Failing that just buy
something that does the job required of it without the badge.

> By the way, do some people do without a weight belt by means of a SS
> backplate, v- weights etc - or is this a daft question.

Not daft at all. Some people don't use weight, some use V weights, I use a
shot belt. Let's see what others think, but in the end stick with what works
for YOU.

> Using twins is said to be "different" from using a single; perhaps
> running before I can walk even.

Nope, they are different to dive, you'll need a few dives to get the "feel"
of them, but if you're doing 30 - 40m stuff and have a few dozen dives under
your weight belt you will have no problem. At the UKRS IceBreakers we often
lend people twins to try, ask them what they thing.

> Obviously it's heavier and more of a pain on the surface, and
> boyancy is more difficult since you are starting more overwieght
> - by the weight of the air in the second tank at least.

WRONG! Mine (10's) are no heavier than the single + pony + crap I used to
carry. They are a damn sight better balanced, nearer my body CoG, much
easier to carry IMHO. The extra gas is a few Kg's, the ease and balance of
twins means that you wont notice it.

> Is there much else to worry about ?

Yeah, you spend ages on newsgroups telling people how great they are

> What can go wrong exactly ?

The credit card bill comes in and the wife sees it.

> Thanks for reading (at least some of) all this lot and any
> advice greatfully received.

You're welcome. For the style of diving you described in the preamble it
sounds like twins are a sensible move, you've worked that out for yourself,
done your research, asked the right questions IMHO.

HTH

Keith L

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:24:14 +0100, Hywel Davies wrote:

> So, I probably should be using a twin-set - more for the comfort value
> of having loads of air in hand, than necessarily expecting to use two
> full tanks. I'm not going to be committing to a lot of deco just yet
> given my limited experience level.

Maybe, or maybe you should be doing some more shallower diving first. Get
comfortable with a single, use nitrox for longer bottom times and stick to
non-deco dives for a while. Your comfort level will increase. Your air
consumption will come down. And then is the time to do deeper stuff and
move onto a twinset.

For a 30m dive, lack of air shouldn't be the reason you go to a twinset.
Lack of redundant air, yes. A couple of weekends ago we did the annual
UKRS shallowish Falmouth dive trip. Most of our dives were shallower
than30m and we used 32% nitrox on them. Yet I and my buddy still managed
to get up to our no-deco limit on every dive and still come out with
enough gas. Fitness has little to do with it, comfort in the water has
everything to do with it.

I had well over 100 dives before I did a mandatory deco stop. Some people
seem to be in far too much of a hurry.

Jason

--
http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for Aussie diving reports including
Cape Tribulation, Cairns, Airlie Beach, Exmouth and the HMAS Swan

> Can you use a wing with a single tank - perhaps it depends ?

You can, but you're not likely to like using the same one you would want for
twins. The wing I most often use with my single tanks only has 18 lbs,
about 9 kilos of lift.

> The Halcyon equivalent at a £100 or so more - . Or perhaps something else?

If you decide to go with a plate, talk to Nigel, right here on this list.
He sometimes gets a bunch made up for UKRS folks and, if I'm not mistaken,
sells them for considerably less than anybody will sell Halcyon plates.

> By the way, do some people do without a weight belt by means of a SS
> backplate, v- weights etc - or is this a daft question.

It's probably a daft question for where you are. It's not daft everyplace.
I dive with a stainless Halcyon plate and no lead when I dive with no
thermal protection. When I get my 3mm wetsuit, which is all I need even in
winter, here, I add 4 lbs of ditchable weight.

> Obviously it's heavier and more of a pain on the surface, and boyancy is
> more difficult since you are starting more overwieght - by the weight of
the
> air in the second tank at least. Is there much else to worry about ? What
> can go wrong exactly ?

Talk to somebody about the pros and cons of isolation manifolds versus
independent twins.

Lee

> > How much lift do I need for twin 12s ? presumably 50lbs
> > odd ?

My 45lb wing supports twin 12L, Pro14 canister torch and 2 x 7L stages. Both
my buddies have 50lb (?55lb) wings and not infrequently comment that they
would, at some stage, like to change down.

> > The Halcyon equivalent at a £100 or so more - . Or perhaps
> > something else?
>
> If you want the pose factor or can't be arsed with the hassle
> from the DIR purists

I beg your pardon? You ought to know better than that, Keith.

> then go for Halcyon, it's bloody good kit.

Agreed. I think it's somewhat more robust than the DR Classic, but the
Classic works well also.

Iain

"Iain Smith" <iainmsmith@btinternet.com> wrote ...

> > If you want the pose factor or can't be arsed with the hassle
> > from the DIR purists

> I beg your pardon? You ought to know better than that, Keith.

You know me Iain, owning non DIR kit is all part of the fun if you enjoy a
good wind up

K

"Iain Smith" <iainmsmith@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:2k1tkmF16ok3iU1@uni-berlin.de...
>> > How much lift do I need for twin 12s ? presumably 50lbs
>> > odd ?
>
> My 45lb wing supports twin 12L, Pro14 canister torch and 2 x 7L stages.
> Both
> my buddies have 50lb (?55lb) wings and not infrequently comment that they
> would, at some stage, like to change down.
>
>> > The Halcyon equivalent at a £100 or so more - . Or perhaps
>> > something else?
>>
>> If you want the pose factor or can't be arsed with the hassle
>> from the DIR purists
>
> I beg your pardon? You ought to know better than that, Keith.
>
>> then go for Halcyon, it's bloody good kit.
>
> Agreed. I think it's somewhat more robust than the DR Classic, but the
> Classic works well also.

Indeed. Having owned both (I know use a Halcyon 55lb Explorer), the Halcyon
is a better wing and - with the recent weak dollar - can be picked up for
less than you think. As well as simply feeling like a better made product,
the Explorer definately has a better bladder - unlike the DR Classic, the
Explorer's bladder is reinforced and is therefore more puncture resistent.
The shoulder strain relief is a nice feature too.

What is silly, however, is the way that Halcyon still do not fit some form
of toggle to the rear dump - unless you're going to dive the wing in warm
water, this will be the first thing you'll rectify!

Iain Smith wrote:
> Agreed. I think it's somewhat more robust than the DR Classic, but the
> Classic works well also.

Maybe so but I suspect if my Classic ever comes back from a dive
punctured most of the diver will be missing and there will be
serious teeth-marks in the tank.

If buying a wing be careful to distinguish between the Wing-Only
price and the Complete-with-harness price. Also note that the
Classic is a twins only wing not a compromise that works equally
as badly on both singles and twins.

nigelH

Bardo <me@privacy.net> writes:

> Indeed. Having owned both (I know use a Halcyon 55lb Explorer), the Halcyon
> is a better wing and - with the recent weak dollar - can be picked up for
> less than you think.

www.deepstop.de is very competitive on Halcyon prices at the moment too.
I've never bought Halcyon from them, but I have bought some other bits and
pieces and they are absolutely fine to deal with.

> What is silly, however, is the way that Halcyon still do not fit some form
> of toggle to the rear dump - unless you're going to dive the wing in warm
> water, this will be the first thing you'll rectify!

There is a reason for this: they leave off the toggle because of the
possibility that it may catch on a piece of wreckage or line, and
cause you to dump gas accidentally.

Pete

--
__________________________________________________ __________________
Pete Young pete@antipope.dot.org Remove .dot to reply
"Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life"

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:24:56 +0100, Pete Young <pete@antipope.dot.org>
wrote:


>www.deepstop.de is very competitive on Halcyon prices at the moment too.

Just had a quick look at a few bits I want and to be honest everything
was cheaper at DIR Direct
--
Pete

news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk