Diver safety following a number of fatalities

"Nigel Hewitt" <news@REMOVETHISnigelhewitt.net> wrote in message
news:bd55d317b5b3c709a738d41ab538db0d@news.teranew s.com...
> NoJags Neil wrote:
> > but - hey - you're allowed trailers now so nothing to
> > stop me taking diving gear on a bike!
>
> Pah.
> Who needs trailers when you have a Fireblade?
> http://www.nigelhewitt.co.uk/stuff/bikefill1.jpg
>

Intriguing. And I suppose you could just wear your drysuit instead of an
oversuit? Come to think of it, I suppose biking in the UK and diving aren't
that dissimilar.

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:48:59 +0100, "NoJags Neil"
<neil264removethisbit@andthisbithotmail.com> wrote:

>Changed to 125cc with 12bhp limit in the late 70s or early 80s I think.

Mid 80's I think I did mine on full power 250 late 1980 and I was no
where near the last
--
Pete

news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk

Nigel Hewitt wrote:

> Up to 250c on L plates in the late 60s.
> I don't know the date it changed too that.
>
> nigelH
> Norton 350 twin owner in 1968

Was the same in the seventies too.

- Keith
Kawasaki Z650 in 1978 :)

> When people from BSAC talk about progressive training, they are generally
> talking about building on the level of individual skills as you gain
> more experience, rather than progressing from one qualification to the
> next.

.... and of course during 'school' training (both BSAC and PADI) you
generally get a few days of very intensive training, just tell you the bare
facts you need, do the minimum needed to get you qualified in a short time.
The club training, where it will often take a few months at least to get
even the most basic qualification gives time to think about what you're
doing, take things in, learn outside of the formal training, and of course
you don't have to be finished in a certain amount of time - if you need more
practice at certain skills, you'll get it.

From what i've seen of people trained abroad, there is certainly a problem
with standards in a lot of places (based on the 20 or so people joining our
club each year who come with warm water PADI training). I've had people who
are supposed to be PADI AOW (capable of diving to ~30m?) yet they don't even
know which way to put a reg onto a cylinder, and had no idea that the cam
band should be tightly snapped on rather than held on purely with the
strength of the velcro! And that was before we even got into the water...
It may be fine in a nice padi resort where someone else puts your kit
together and carrys you to the water, puts the reg in your mouth and just
tells you to breathe as they drag you down to 30m, but seriously, the fact
that someone with so little knowledge or skill could gain a qualification
like that (even in warm water) is very worrying. Maybe that is where the
very intensive training fails - someone may remember the right way to put a
reg on for the 3 days of their course, but after that they forget everything
they've been told... thats the big reason I personally like the club system,
you will do something so many times over a few months (at least) before you
get a qualification that you are going to remember it - and if every week we
see that they still can't remember things like that, they won't be signed
off for a qualification - simple as that.

I still don't think that a lot of serious incidents occur due to the lack of
training, but I think that's more because they do join other clubs or dive
with other people who stop them before they go and do something stupid. We
started them with shallow shore dives, and watched them as they got ready.
If some of these people just booked themself on a boat and jumped off the
back with the cylinder held on by the strength of the velcro, that could
have turned very bad very quickly.

The point of all this - not quite sure, I tend to ramble on once I get
going - but in general I do think the club system is preferable to schools,
and even through people not trained in a club environment I think the clubs
do prevent a lot of incidents by taking responsibility for them and actually
making sure they know what they are doing without just jumping into the sea
without a clue!
The way to avoid an increase in accidents: encourage warm water divers
starting in the UK to get involved with a club, where people can help them
along as they gain experience!

David

NoJags Neil wrote:
> "Nigel Hewitt" <news@REMOVETHISnigelhewitt.net> wrote in message
> news:bd55d317b5b3c709a738d41ab538db0d@news.teranew s.com...
>
>>NoJags Neil wrote:
>>
>>> but - hey - you're allowed trailers now so nothing to
>>>stop me taking diving gear on a bike!
>>
>>Pah.
>>Who needs trailers when you have a Fireblade?
>>http://www.nigelhewitt.co.uk/stuff/bikefill1.jpg
>>
>
>
> Intriguing. And I suppose you could just wear your drysuit instead of an
> oversuit? Come to think of it, I suppose biking in the UK and diving aren't
> that dissimilar.
>
>
He must've been reading that stuff about if you travel faster than 30mph
the air will be sucked out of your lungs )
Last FB I rode did a bit more than 30 though.................
Graham
900 Trophy
350 Ariel
175 Bantam
Aqualung!

"David Walker" <wbsdavenews@hotmail.com> wrote...

> ... and of course during 'school' training (both BSAC and
> PADI) you generally get a few days of very intensive
> training, just tell you the bare facts you need, do the
> minimum needed to get you qualified in a short time.
> The club training, where it will often take a few months
> at least to get even the most basic qualification gives
> time to think about what you're doing, take things in,
> learn outside of the formal training, and of course
> you don't have to be finished in a certain amount of time
> - if you need more practice at certain skills, you'll get it.

> The point of all this - not quite sure, I tend to ramble on
> once I get going - but in general I do think the club system is
> preferable to schools, and even through people not trained in
> a club environment I think the clubs do prevent a lot of
> incidents by taking responsibility for them and actually
> making sure they know what they are doing without just
> jumping into the sea without a clue!

[Personal View]

Hi David

I think that you may have a point but I don't think that it's the whole
story. Some of the incidents in recent years have indicated what can only be
described as a lack of basic knowledge and an awareness of the risks but
that is by no means all of the incidents.

In the cases that you cite I don't think that the basic training is the
problem, neither do I think that the club system is inherently "better" in
any real way. The systems are just different, they are both equally capable
of producing bad divers.

Where I think that there is a problem is in the overselling of courses as in
"do our course - then you can do THIS...", I think that this is particularly
a problem in overseas holiday courses. The courses are (or should be) taught
to the high standards that I have seen the same course taught in the UK, the
difference is in the sell. I've seen divers, on overseas courses, who
because they can write their name on a slate at 25m, identify a few fish and
draw a simple picture of a ship sitting on the seabed - believe that they
are now "advanced" divers suitably qualified and experienced for a 40m wreck
dive.

Now, the statistics for overseas/holiday incidents do not highlight this as
a problem at the time, the courses, the training, the ethos is designed for
the safe, guided environment that the course is taught in. What is missing
IMHO is the element of common sense and reality, these people come back to
the UK believing in themselves, they have accidents. This isn't the fault of
any one agency or any one course, I've seen divers trained (both UK and
overseas) to a supposededly lower qualification but instilled with this
sense of their limitations, they KNOW that they are inexperienced, they KNOW
that they have a lot to learn. They then go about learning it safely.
Exactly the same course, it's just taught slightly differently.

A few years ago now the incident reports showed a rising trend in incidents
due to buoyancy problems, this was recognised by the BSAC and our training
was modified to place more emphasis on this basic skill. Again I have seen
this lacking in overseas basic courses, my favourite quote from a soon to be
"advanced" diver was - "oh, so you adjust your buoyancy during the dive do
you?". This does not exactly instil confidence.

There's two things that I think should happen here. The first is very
simple, I know that it's not "nice" and a good thing in sales terms but
there is a lot to be said for what we used to call "the doom and gloom"
lecture. You were taught about what could go wrong, you were taught about
incidents, your own fallibility was highlighted. The second is a little less
of the hard sell, if excellent courses like the PADI Peak Performance
Buoyancy were pushed just as hard as the "advanced" courses then that would
help as well.

So I don't think that it's the training, from any agency, that is the real
problem. But a very real problem is what people go away believing they are
capable of.

Discuss

Keith L

Graham Bowers wrote:
> Last FB I rode did a bit more than 30 though.................

I never had that one much over 160 'cos I'm not
interested in straight roads --- but it passed
a boring trip home. Might have pushed it a bit
faster but the helmet was pushed back and
touching my nose and the rain was making it
hard to see (not wearing twins I may add).

I think I'll stick to diving.

nigelH

> The second is a little less
> of the hard sell, if excellent courses like the PADI Peak Performance
> Buoyancy were pushed just as hard as the "advanced" courses then that
would
> help as well.
>

I did the peak performance bouyancy as one of my AOW dives. I spent the last
5 min of the dive finning head down to stay below the surface, but I'm not
sure that the 'instructor' noticed.

Met the same 'instructor' after my first twinset dive, and he didn't
understand why I'd want to be able to do a shutdown during a dive.

Sean

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:28:18 +0100, David Walker wrote:

> club each year who come with warm water PADI training). I've had people who
> are supposed to be PADI AOW (capable of diving to ~30m?) yet they don't even
> know which way to put a reg onto a cylinder, and had no idea that the cam
> band should be tightly snapped on rather than held on purely with the
> strength of the velcro! And that was before we even got into the water...

But when was the last time these people dived? I've been on a boat out of
Perth and about 5 people on there didn't know how to put their sets
together. I'm sure they were trained how to do it, they'd just forgotten
because they hadn't dived in months, some of them well over a year.

Now, yes, if they'd taken 6 months to train with a club, they wouldn't
have this problem. But they also wouldn't have it if they'd done their
original course and then carried on diving. Who's going to be the better
diver? Someone who did 6 months in a pool? Or someone who did the course
in a week and then dived regularly for 6 months with a more experienced buddy?

Jason

--
http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for the UK viz database and trip reports
about Australia, the Caribbean, Spain, the Maldives, Bali and the UK

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:28:18 +0100, David Walker wrote:

> But when was the last time these people dived? I've been on a boat out of
> Perth and about 5 people on there didn't know how to put their sets
> together. I'm sure they were trained how to do it, they'd just forgotten
> because they hadn't dived in months, some of them well over a year.

I'm not so sure. I can clearly recall one of the first PADI divers I ever
dove with. He was very recently certified and required help in assembling
his gear . . . single tank, warm water gear. It doesn't get any easier than
that. I'm not a big fan of PADI. While there are certainly some good PADI
instructors, the corporate organization is very focused on business growth
and profits. OK, so any business needs profits. It's just that, in my
experience with other agencies, profits weren't the only motive. With PADI,
they seem to be.

Lee