Diver safety following a number of fatalities

As a concerned diver I really would like to hear my fellow divers opinions
on what seems to be an increasing number of fatalities reported in the press
and the likely repercussions of such media exposure.

What is the cause of the increasing number of diving fatalities?

Is it the thrust of the PADI advanced diving cert? Newly qualified OW
divers are encouraged to take advanced diver as soon as they qualify, and
when they pass, they are anything but advanced. Ten dives does not make a
diver no matter what certificates they hold, but is the confidence of having
the Advanced cert pushing them to go beyond their personal diving limits? Or
is it simply the increasing number of participants in the sport which is
making the fatalities seem higher?

Will the increasing number of fatalities encourage the government to issue
legislation for divers and set standards for diving charters. If so what
will that mean for the freedom of UK diving.

I am highlighting PADI not out of some form of malice, I myself am a PADI
cert diver, however I (personally) think that the progressive training
regime offered by such organisations as BSAC is preferable to PADI
financially driven diver training.

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:40:05 +0100, "Jim" <foj@grizedale.karoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>As a concerned diver I really would like to hear my fellow divers opinions
>on what seems to be an increasing number of fatalities reported in the press
>and the likely repercussions of such media exposure.
>
>What is the cause of the increasing number of diving fatalities?
>
> Is it the thrust of the PADI advanced diving cert? Newly qualified OW
>divers are encouraged to take advanced diver as soon as they qualify, and
>when they pass, they are anything but advanced. Ten dives does not make a
>diver no matter what certificates they hold, but is the confidence of having
>the Advanced cert pushing them to go beyond their personal diving limits? Or
>is it simply the increasing number of participants in the sport which is
>making the fatalities seem higher?
>
>Will the increasing number of fatalities encourage the government to issue
>legislation for divers and set standards for diving charters. If so what
>will that mean for the freedom of UK diving.
>
>I am highlighting PADI not out of some form of malice, I myself am a PADI
>cert diver, however I (personally) think that the progressive training
>regime offered by such organisations as BSAC is preferable to PADI
>financially driven diver training.
>
>

It appears to me that your first paragraph which contains "seems to be
an increasing number of fatalities" is the basis for all the following
paragraphs. You have gone from "seems to be" to "the increasing number
of fatalities" without any reference to any statistics or factual
reports, and then used it as the basis for a question about
legislation and training standards.

You're not a journalist are you?

Pete S.

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:40:05 +0100, Jim wrote:

> As a concerned diver I really would like to hear my fellow divers opinions
> on what seems to be an increasing number of fatalities reported in the press
> and the likely repercussions of such media exposure.
however I (personally) think that the progressive training
> regime offered by such organisations as BSAC is preferable to PADI
> financially driven diver training.

Generally, see my reply to your last post. What I don't inderstand is the
use of the words "progressive training". Why do you think that:

Open Water Diver
Advanced Open Water Diver
Rescue Diver
Mster Scuba Diver or Dive Master

is less progressive than

Ocean Diver
Sports Diver
Dive Leader
Avanced Diver

Surely they both provide progression from one grade to the next.

As for quality of training etc, on my Open Water course in 1988 I was
trained above and beyond the basic PADI syllabus, especially for diving in
this country, for no extra cost.

We learnt basic rescue, as the BSAC taught it and my Instructor thought it
appropriate for diving conditions in this country. My first Open Water
dive was an altitude dive in a quarry My second Open water dive was a
river dive in 0 - 1m vis - experience only, no training. The rest were sea
dives were the basic drills were carried out.

Much more than you appear to expect from a PADI trained diver. As I said
before and I will reiterate here, diving is relatively simple and the
skill needed are common to all training agencies syllabuses. I
believe that what makes the difference is the quality of the instructor.

--
Gareth Ansell
UNIX Team
Computing Services
Coventry University

Jim <foj@grizedale.karoo.co.uk> spluttered indignantly:

> As a concerned diver I really would like to hear my fellow divers opinions
> on what seems to be an increasing number of fatalities reported in the press
> and the likely repercussions of such media exposure.

Troll.

Pete

--
__________________________________________________ __________________
Pete Young pete@antipope.dot.org Remove .dot to reply
"Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life"

In article <8w-dnayqbd7TynfdSa8jmw@karoo.co.uk>,
Jim <foj@grizedale.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>As a concerned diver I really would like to hear my fellow divers opinions
>on what seems to be an increasing number of fatalities reported in the press
>and the likely repercussions of such media exposure.
>
>What is the cause of the increasing number of diving fatalities?

What makes you think there is an increasing number of fatalities?

On the contrary, to me it seems that with respect to the number of
people diving and training the percentage of fatalities is on the DECREASE.

See

http://www.bsac.org/techserv/increp03/fatalities03.htm

for example.

More and more people are learning to dive, yet the number of fatalities
stays about the same. (Or appears to be decreasing according to that graph)
OK - That's BSAC only, but I'm sure the trend is the same regardless
of organisation.

However, what you say might be true: There might well be an increasing
number of fatalities reported in the press - why's that? Well,
communications have improved over the years, and lets face it, death,
gore and general mayhem and malady makes news and SELLS PAPERS. The
best we can hope for is that the fatalities of 2005 are all scummy
journalists...

Gordon

<Pete S.> wrote in message news:40ea5c07.3655015@news.clara.net...
> On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:40:05 +0100, "Jim" <foj@grizedale.karoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >As a concerned diver I really would like to hear my fellow divers
opinions
> >on what seems to be an increasing number of fatalities reported in the
press
> >and the likely repercussions of such media exposure.
> >
> >What is the cause of the increasing number of diving fatalities?
> >
> > Is it the thrust of the PADI advanced diving cert? Newly qualified OW
> >divers are encouraged to take advanced diver as soon as they qualify, and
> >when they pass, they are anything but advanced. Ten dives does not make a
> >diver no matter what certificates they hold, but is the confidence of
having
> >the Advanced cert pushing them to go beyond their personal diving limits?
Or
> >is it simply the increasing number of participants in the sport which is
> >making the fatalities seem higher?
> >
> >Will the increasing number of fatalities encourage the government to
issue
> >legislation for divers and set standards for diving charters. If so what
> >will that mean for the freedom of UK diving.
> >
> >I am highlighting PADI not out of some form of malice, I myself am a PADI
> >cert diver, however I (personally) think that the progressive training
> >regime offered by such organisations as BSAC is preferable to PADI
> >financially driven diver training.
> >
> >
>
> It appears to me that your first paragraph which contains "seems to be
> an increasing number of fatalities" is the basis for all the following
> paragraphs. You have gone from "seems to be" to "the increasing number
> of fatalities" without any reference to any statistics or factual
> reports, and then used it as the basis for a question about
> legislation and training standards.
>
> You're not a journalist are you?
>
> Pete S.

I doesn't matter what the statistical evidence might say, the general public
or a member of a government agency will not consider numbers and ratios when
they perceive diving to be a dangerous sport. Increasing media attention
will highlight the fatalities, but who's there counter that attention when
we all have our backs to the wall, waiting for some legislative structure to
be imposed on our sport to make it safer.

Not likely to happen? Look at the two stage Motorcycle licence which is in
place today, not long ago anyone could jump on any sized bike and ride away.
Was licensing changed because of the high proportion of riders killed? No
it wasn't. It was brought in because of public and media attention.

You could suggest that it was imposed to prevent reckless riders killing
themselves, are you now going to tell me there are no reckless divers?

Jim

Jim wrote:
> What is the cause of the increasing number of diving fatalities?

Woops. Stop right there. You are noticing an increasing number?
I thought the trend over the last few years was roughly level
and perhaps even down which, with an ever increasing number of
divers, reads like a good thing.

> Is it the thrust of the PADI advanced diving cert? Newly qualified OW
> divers are encouraged to take advanced diver as soon as they qualify,

Darn good idea. Naked OW is a pretty flimsy qualification in the UK.
Low vis, tide and cold mean that the only person you have is your buddy.
You need to be able to navigate and use a torch as a bare minimum and
spending some time with an instructor doing buoyancy exercises is a
good thing.

> and when they pass, they are anything but advanced.

Advanced version of OW. That's all it promises.

> Will the increasing number of fatalities encourage the government to issue
> legislation for divers and set standards for diving charters. If so what
> will that mean for the freedom of UK diving.

Too many imponderables to answer. There is no legislation controlling
amateur diving in the UK and who might be supposed to deliver and enforce it?

> I am highlighting PADI not out of some form of malice, I myself am a PADI
> cert diver, however I (personally) think that the progressive training
> regime offered by such organisations as BSAC is preferable to PADI
> financially driven diver training.

You really have swallowed somebody else's agenda hook line and sinker.
The BSAC progression through OD->SD is excellent however so is the
PADI OW->AOW->RD. Frankly I like RD training in a buddy. In 2m vis
they are the only person I have and if I need pulling out, for what
ever reason, it is nice to know they've practised it and they've been
hit with the scenario tests.

Diving has long since progressed from Heroics to Hobby. Yes there
will always be accidents but it's lots safer than motorcycle racing
and there are not many laws restraining that. Governments are
smart enough to realise that people are allowed personal risks.
Angling kills more people than diving - that's what the statistics say.

I do not believe there is a framework of law to contain regulations for
hobby divers. The qualifications we talk about are not enshrined in law
and there are more bodies than PADI and BSAC to consider. Who is to say
what is an acceptable qualification for a dive? Nobody other than the
diver themselves.

Divers will die. Sad but true. I just did my medical for another year
so I have some confidence I will do another year without having a heart
attack in the water but if, in a moment of stupidity, I swap to a high
oxygen mix at depth I'm toast and no laws will protect me. You can no
more stop diving accidents by legislation than you can petty theft.

OK perhaps they will insist on "I counted then out, I counted them back"
procedures but that is the rarest of incident. Restrict duration by
qualification? If they can't spot the SPG is reading low will they
look at their watch? Depth? I've dived a wall that dropped to 600m.
Kit sales? What do I need to go to 18m that won't take me to 40?

Diving is getting safer because of good training. Scare stories about
increasing fatalities are just plain wrong. We get the reports here
and we read them and wonder about them but to the average reader of
the daily press they are irrelevant. They don't notice them.

nigelH

"Jim" <foj@grizedale.karoo.co.uk> wrote ...

> I doesn't matter what the statistical evidence might say...

I'm challenging you Jim - are you a journalist? What is your agenda here?

> Increasing media attention will highlight the fatalities, but
> who's there counter that attention when we all have our backs
> to the wall, waiting for some legislative structure to
> be imposed on our sport to make it safer.

The Governing Body of the sport in England - The British Sub Aqua Club. With
our experts who are often called to give evidence at inquests. With our
legal team who have a lot of experience in this area. With our contacts with
all other diving agencies. With the government agencies who we work closely
with to establish THE FACTS. With our tens of thousands of members who will
counter any of the puerile crap that you seem to be spouting Jim.

You claim to be a diver, but I don't like the way you seem to be acting
against our interests and running us down.

Time for an explanation I think.

Keith Lawrence
Council Member
British Sub Aqua Club

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:47:13 +0000 (UTC),
gordon@this-is-valid-but-a-spam-trap.drogon.net (Gordon Henderson)
wrote:

>OK - That's BSAC only, but I'm sure the trend is the same regardless
>of organisation.

Actually it's not - BSAC incident reports come in from all
organisations and include data picked up from the Coast guard, RNLI
and from newspapers
--
Pete

news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk

"Pete Melbourne" <psmvsl@yahoo.co.uk> wrote ...

> >OK - That's BSAC only, but I'm sure the trend is the same regardless
> >of organisation.

> Actually it's not - BSAC incident reports come in from all
> organisations and include data picked up from the Coast guard, RNLI
> and from newspapers

Pete's right. The BSAC collate and publish incident reports that relate to
any recreational diving incident in the UK. This is by agreement with all of
the major diving agencies and the government/voluntary agencies concerned.
This data is always made public domain for the benefit of all divers.

It's only the overseas statistics that relate to BSAC divers only.

Regards

Keith L