2 spaces available Littlehampton 25th

Diving the Basil, max 40m aboard Defiant. Cost £35.

Must have current SAA/BSAC membership or 3rd party public liability
insurance.

Qualification- SAA/BSAC Dive Leader or Nitrox diver or above. PADI divers
must be either a Dive Master or Nitrox Diver.

Buddy pairs only please.

Cheers

Nick



remove 'at' from address to reply.

"Nick" <ndann@(at)blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gA3Mc.6038$8v.61938776@news-text.cableinet.net...
> Diving the Basil, max 40m aboard Defiant. Cost £35.
>
> Must have current SAA/BSAC membership or 3rd party public liability
> insurance.
>
> Qualification- SAA/BSAC Dive Leader or Nitrox diver or above. PADI divers
> must be either a Dive Master or Nitrox Diver.

You do realise that a PADI 'nitrox diver' could be a fairly recently
certified Open Water diver, don't you? That would make them certified to
just 18m with minimal experience - possibly not the sort of diver you want
on a 40m dive...

>
> You do realise that a PADI 'nitrox diver' could be a fairly recently
> certified Open Water diver, don't you? That would make them certified to
> just 18m with minimal experience - possibly not the sort of diver you want
> on a 40m dive...


You're right, we've only jusy implemented these new rules to cover our
backsides so appreciate any loopholes being pointed out. I'm sure this would
have been realised long before but all the same. Should read PADI Divemaster
or PADI rescue diver with Nitrox cert. In retrospect I guess this dive
shouldn't be open to PADI divers anyway due to depth constraints unless they
hold the deep diving badge. Don't get me wrong, nothing against PADI.

thanks

Nick

"Nick" <ndann@(at)blueyonder.co.uk> wrote ...

> You're right, we've only jusy implemented these new rules to
> cover our backsides so appreciate any loopholes being pointed
> out. I'm sure this would have been realised long before but
> all the same. Should read PADI Divemaster or PADI rescue diver
> with Nitrox cert. In retrospect I guess this dive shouldn't
> be open to PADI divers anyway due to depth constraints unless they
> hold the deep diving badge. Don't get me wrong, nothing against PADI.

Hi Nick

I'm sure that one of the PADI guys will confirm but I /think/ that the AOW
which is pre-requisite for Rescue/DM has a depth limit of 40m although the
actual training is only carried out down to 30. It's not the depth anyway,
it's the recent experience at the depth at is much more important. IIRC the
BSAC DL course only has the actual training element down to about 18m (or it
used to, I'd have to look it up). Not quite sure why you insist in Nitrox
either, at 40m some might prefer air anyway.

No way should you rule out PADI divers, you would loose more than half of
this group for a start! Plus of course many people will hold other technical
qualifications such as IANTD as well as their PADI quals. Would you accept
Jason P for instance? IIRC he's "only" a PADI DM - but also holds TDI Trimix
quals and has done many hundereds of dives!

You don't mention whether you're a BSAC club, if you are then the insurance
may possibly be sorted as well. See
http://www.bsac.org/services/insurancefaq.htm, provided you are conducting
the diving under the guidance of the BSAC SDP's then guests on branch dives
are covered by the BSAC 3rd Party insurance up to 7 visits per year. This is
intended to cover visitors who you are trying to get to join! I don't think
it would cover "pure quests/friends" who are just filling up the space for
you - it would be better if they had their own insurance.

HTH

Keith L

> Hi Nick
>
> I'm sure that one of the PADI guys will confirm but I /think/ that the AOW
> which is pre-requisite for Rescue/DM has a depth limit of 40m although the
> actual training is only carried out down to 30. It's not the depth anyway,
> it's the recent experience at the depth at is much more important. IIRC
the
> BSAC DL course only has the actual training element down to about 18m (or
it
> used to, I'd have to look it up). Not quite sure why you insist in Nitrox
> either, at 40m some might prefer air anyway.
>
> No way should you rule out PADI divers, you would loose more than half of
> this group for a start! Plus of course many people will hold other
technical
> qualifications such as IANTD as well as their PADI quals. Would you accept
> Jason P for instance? IIRC he's "only" a PADI DM - but also holds TDI
Trimix
> quals and has done many hundereds of dives!
>
> You don't mention whether you're a BSAC club, if you are then the
insurance
> may possibly be sorted as well. See
> http://www.bsac.org/services/insurancefaq.htm, provided you are conducting
> the diving under the guidance of the BSAC SDP's then guests on branch
dives
> are covered by the BSAC 3rd Party insurance up to 7 visits per year. This
is
> intended to cover visitors who you are trying to get to join! I don't
think
> it would cover "pure quests/friends" who are just filling up the space for
> you - it would be better if they had their own insurance.
>
> HTH
>
> Keith L
>
>
>
Hi Keith

Thanks for the reply.

I'de be interested to know the limits for PADI divers, I was under the
impression it was 30m.
The requirements we set out for guest divers are the basic requirements.
We'd also require recent experience under similar conditions but this would
be discussed after initial contact, no need to list everything as I
appreciate that it could look as though we're being a little too strict !
Other organisations would be more than welcome, TDI, IANTD, etc etc on the
condition that they have the insurance. In my experience, most are BSAC,
PADI trained and have then furthered their qualification with one of the
technical diving agencies. Again, these are only guidelines.

The Nitrox requirement is really to establish in our minds that the guest
has the added experience/understanding. Most of our diving is at 30m +
involving deco so if they are not Nitrox certified they would need to have a
higher diving qualification. Agreed, at 40m it's borderline whether you'd
want to dive a mix or not but the option's there. I know qualification
doesn't always equate with experience and you can have sports/club divers
with more experience than DL's but we felt the need to reduce the grey
areas. We recently sat down and watched the HSE DVD and this is one of the
things that came out of it. I'm sure that some people will agree with some
of it and others wont but this is our interpretation of what we as a club
felt we needed to do, particularly in light of the increased risk of
litigation these days.
It's not intended to put people off as every empty space on our boats is
subsidised by the club so they need to be filled. However, we've got a duty
of care to our members and guests which we take pretty seriously.

We're actually an SAA club, it's interesting to see BSACs guidleines re the
guest insurance.


Thanks again for your comments,

Nick

Keith Lawrence <false@nospam.com> skriver:
> "Nick" <ndann@(at)blueyonder.co.uk> wrote ...
>> You're right, we've only jusy implemented these new rules to
>> cover our backsides so appreciate any loopholes being pointed

> I'm sure that one of the PADI guys will confirm but I /think/ that the AOW
> which is pre-requisite for Rescue/DM has a depth limit of 40m although the
> actual training is only carried out down to 30. It's not the depth anyway,
> it's the recent experience at the depth at is much more important. IIRC the

After AOW you can dive to 40 meters, it is recomended that you don't
dive deeper than 30 meters. The PADI way of limits are a little
confusing. The maximun limit is 40 meters but it recomended athat you
never dive deeper that 30 meters. There however ia a oot of different
levels of knowledge for a PADI diver and then setting a hard limit in
what course that you should have done for a dive like this is very
hard. Along the many very experienced PADI divers they seam to stay at
AOW with out any specilities, many of these old divers should have no
problem with this dive, some of then even stoped before the AOW have
some couple of tusand dives around the world anmd still is only OW
divers. The OW depth limit at 18 meters are as much of a
recomedations as the limit on 30 meters for all other diving. When you
have the knowledge and experience you can very well dive deeper that
that recomendation. After 40 however the PADI tabels stops to give any
clues. (And on air these depths are probly stupid anyhow...)

/ Balp
--
http://anders.arnholm.nu/ Keep on Balping

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:32:17 +0200, Anders Arnholm
<Anders+news@Arnholm.nu> wrote:


>While at the discussion about this, DM is not in tyhe normal step for
>a padi diver the PADI course system in difference to BSAC split after
>Rescue Diver, Divemaster being the first step going into the
>professional carrer. The Divemaster course is only recomended for
>people intreseded in working within the dive indistry. The main focus
>of the educations in to assist with the Open Water course, you don't
>learn anything more (or very little more) about your own diving. The
>intro to the different diving areas are almost as small as in the
>advanced course. (Much depending on the instructors chooses ofcourse.)

Well, I really must take you to task on that one.

Learning to teach others means that all your skills need to be not
just "achieved", but of "demonstration quality". You need to be able
to get it right, first time every time, and make it look easy so that
the student can gain confidence.

Being a DM is about a lot more than teaching though. How about
"assesment of other divers" - people watching skills. Working out who
is going to be a problem and having the skill set to prevent a problem
before it happens.

I could go on.........

But in anycase, as has already been said, if you have people on your
trip you will need to assess training and skill levels.

Pete S. PADI AI, IANTD CCR mod III, IANTD Trimix blending, SAA DO,
and, more important than all those, 1000's of dives.

Pete wrote:

> Well, I really must take you to task on that one.
>
> Learning to teach others means that all your skills need to be not
> just "achieved", but of "demonstration quality". You need to be able
> to get it right, first time every time, and make it look easy so that
> the student can gain confidence.

Yes, but those are OW skills like mask removal and replacement,
reg removal/recovery etc. A DM qualification does not hone your
skills in firing off DSMB's, doing deco hangs, untangling yourself
from netting, etc etc. Unless you want to instruct, why do the
DM course? One answer I've heard is so operators abroad
take you seriously. Personally I find a TDI advanced trimix card
works quite well there ;)

If you want to make it look easy, there's no substitute for
experience. But then you know that.

- Keith

> Pete S. PADI AI, IANTD CCR mod III, IANTD Trimix blending, SAA DO,
> and, more important than all those, 1000's of dives.

And unfortunately even number of dives can be misleading - were they all on
a 6m flat reef during one of these summer conservation thingys counting fish
in a wetsuit, were they on the 6m shelf in stoney doing mask clearing with
1000 students, were they nice shore dives on safe sites, or were they way
offshore doing a dangerous wreck resting on a tiny ledge 100m down that
hangs over a 10mile deep sheer drop?

In the end, nothing is simple - you can probably rule out lower
qualifications for some trips (ie if you're diving a 35m wreck you probably
don't want Ocean Divers there), but other than that I wouldn't automatically
let a Dive Leader come either unless I knew who they were, where they dived
before, etc etc etc...

David

"Keith S." <false@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:2mfpfcFmtuvoU1@uni-berlin.de...
> Pete wrote:
>
>> Well, I really must take you to task on that one.
>>
>> Learning to teach others means that all your skills need to be not
>> just "achieved", but of "demonstration quality". You need to be able
>> to get it right, first time every time, and make it look easy so that
>> the student can gain confidence.
>
> Yes, but those are OW skills like mask removal and replacement,
> reg removal/recovery etc. A DM qualification does not hone your
> skills in firing off DSMB's, doing deco hangs, untangling yourself

But the point of doing the DM course is to make you an 'instructional
assistant' able to demonstrate basic skills to a high standard, look after
students and sort out problems before they occur as well as ensuring that
the dive activity you're envolved in runs smoothly. It is not designed to
extend your diving skills for the benefit of your own personal diving
activities - if that's your aim then you should look at either PADI
specialities or look further afield to training agencies like IANTD, TDI and
GUE...

Before you undertake a DM course, you should *in theory* already have good
diving skills in order to be a good 'role model' (lol). Although the course
won't per se extend your own diving skills set, it will make you a more
capable diver by allowing you to consolodate skills you already have. If
you're moaning about not learning new skills on the course then you're doing
the wrong course! Being a DM isn't about *you* - it's about preparing
yourself to safely and competently help others experience the joys of
diving...

Anyway, why would PADI teach you how to do a 'deco hang'?! You need to look
to DSAT for that sort of thing, you know - the words 'deco' and 'PADI' do
not sit together too well...

> from netting, etc etc. Unless you want to instruct, why do the
> DM course? One answer I've heard is so operators abroad
> take you seriously. Personally I find a TDI advanced trimix card
> works quite well there ;)

Operators abroad take you seriously, eh? More like 'operators abroad can
dump the numpty on you', you mean! Personally I prefer to show them TDI
cards - they take you a bit more seriously but don't expect you to babysit
(I learnt the hard way not to show them a DM card)...