Computer And No Console

Hi All,

I'm relatively new to this group so I'm sorry if this has been covered.
I thinking about getting an air integrated wrist-top computer, an Oceanic
Atom, and using that without a console.
As fas as I can see this is a reasonable idea to cut down on bulk and weight
without losing any functionality. I'd need a seperate compass of course.
Is this actually a good idea? Apart from it being wireless, I would like to
think that they have the wireless working well enough now not to suffer from
interference, I can't see any difference between that and a console-based
computer such as the Oceanic Datamax Proplus 2 so I don't see the need for a
backup analogue console.
Batteries would be an issue of course but that problem exists with the
console computers too and it's just a case of management like with any
electronic device.

So am I missing something obvious (dangerous) or does this sound reasonable?
BTW, I realise there are cheaper air-integrated computers but the size is
important.

I welcome your opinions. Thanks in advance.

"Lakofka" <nochance@notgettingme.com> wrote in message
news:chiech$qen$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
> Hi All,
>

> So am I missing something obvious (dangerous) or does this sound
reasonable?
> BTW, I realise there are cheaper air-integrated computers but the size is
> important.
>
> I welcome your opinions. Thanks in advance.
>


Sounds like common sense to me. If you're switching to a transmitter there's
no need to use a guage on a hose as well. Make sure that you've got a back
up timer/depth guage though just in case the computer fails, Uwatec do a
good digital wrist mounted one that's reasonably priced..

regards

Nick

Lakofka wrote:

> I thinking about getting an air integrated wrist-top computer, an Oceanic
> Atom, and using that without a console.

It will work but why not one of those little SPGs and an ordinary computer?
I don't carry a compass most of the time as in a wreck it's just trash so
that's no problem.

> I would like to
> think that they have the wireless working well enough now not to suffer from
> interference,

That seems to be camera flash guns that blow AI's away. The link is wire-less
as in no wires. The link is accoustic so the squeek of a flash recycling wipes
it out for a few minutes.

> Batteries would be an issue of course but that problem exists with the
> console computers too

Which is why most people back up the battery devices with old analog
instruments.

> I welcome your opinions. Thanks in advance.

I suspect this will work only for one style of diving - light and no-stop. Small
computers get to be a bitch to read in the dark and as soon as you start doing
stops you want duplicates of all the things your 'stay alive' plan depends on.
I would guess this is a holiday rig where the primary objective is not diving so
you can't max out the baggage with scuba kit. It will probably do that OK.
If your batteries go flat you just call the dive and since they can last a couple
of years no worries.

nigelH

"Nigel Hewitt" <news@REMOVETHISnigelhewitt.co.uk> wrote in message
news:chifbl$s8c$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
>
> That seems to be camera flash guns that blow AI's away. The link is
> wire-less
> as in no wires. The link is accoustic so the squeek of a flash recycling
> wipes
> it out for a few minutes.

Keep taking the pills Nigel. The link uses the magnetic portion of an EM
wave.....

Zak <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> "Nigel Hewitt" wrote
>>
>> That seems to be camera flash guns that blow AI's away. The link is wire-less
>> as in no wires. The link is accoustic so the squeek of a flash recycling wipes
>> it out for a few minutes.
>
> Keep taking the pills Nigel. The link uses the magnetic portion of an EM
> wave.....

Interesting. Clearly I have been misinformed.
But....
Magnetic I could believe if it's just a solonoid.
But as part of an EM wave?
Poynting vectors and all that?
That does sound interesting.
It also sounds very strange.

nigelH

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:55:33 +0000 (UTC), "Nigel Hewitt"
<news@REMOVETHISnigelhewitt.co.uk> wrote:

>Lakofka wrote:
>
>> I thinking about getting an air integrated wrist-top computer, an Oceanic
>> Atom, and using that without a console.
>
>It will work but why not one of those little SPGs and an ordinary computer?
>I don't carry a compass most of the time as in a wreck it's just trash so
>that's no problem.

Depends if I am diving HMS Inthevicinity of, then it's handy to find
the effing thing

Seriously though, my opinion is that an SPG is a nice simple device
that tells me how much gas I have left at a glance (i.e. 2/3s between
empty and full). It never requires a back light and the batteries
never fail, A gas integrated computer requires a subconscious process
to work out what numbers like 120 mean (you analogue brain needs to
work out how full or empty the tank(s) are). It requires a back light
and the battery may fail. If the battery fails on my computer, I
switch to my backup tables, if they fail on a gas integrated computer,
I would have to switch to tables (assuming the dive is not no-stop -
note: why am I using one of these things for deco diving?) AND I have
to worry about how much gas I have left which will probably increase
my breathing rate which will make me worry more about how much gas I
have left. The solution is a backup analogue SPG. If I am carrying
an analogue SPG as a backup then I may as well use it as a primary (as
it is more reliable) and ditch the air integrated computer and save a
few £s in the process.

The down side? If I don't use a gas integrated computer, I won't know
the time to die! IMO a gas integrated computer introduces far too
many failure/complication scenarios when there is a cheaper more
effective solution available.

But that's just my opinion and we all know that opinions are like
ar$eholes...

Laz

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A foolproof method for sculpting an Elephant:
First, get a huge block of marble. Then, chip away
everything that doesn't look like an Elephant.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Change "nospam" to "ntlworld" to reply.

>I always thought that the wireless transmitters (such as the Vytec &
>Aladdin
> AirX etc) used a low frequency radio connection, neither sound waves or
> magnetic (that seems illogical, as magnetic fields are difficult to
> generate
> with low power batteries over the distances required).

Radio frequency is part of the electromagnetic spectrum (everything would
use electromagnetic stuff, not just pure magnetism) - it's the same as
x-rays, microwaves, ultraviolet, infra-red, visible light, etc, just
different wavelength.

David

"Lazarus X" <lazarusx@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:19npj05lk3fjudjohjlaffh3c9d80gn2u0@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:55:33 +0000 (UTC), "Nigel Hewitt"
> <news@REMOVETHISnigelhewitt.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Lakofka wrote:
> >
> >> I thinking about getting an air integrated wrist-top computer, an
Oceanic
> >> Atom, and using that without a console.
> >
> >It will work but why not one of those little SPGs and an ordinary
computer?
> >I don't carry a compass most of the time as in a wreck it's just trash so
> >that's no problem.
>
> Depends if I am diving HMS Inthevicinity of, then it's handy to find
> the effing thing
>
> Seriously though, my opinion is that an SPG is a nice simple device
> that tells me how much gas I have left at a glance (i.e. 2/3s between
> empty and full). It never requires a back light and the batteries
> never fail,

I agree, and you can buy several SPG's (even the expensive metal bodied ones
with glass faces) for the cost of a single electronic gizmo.

Also, if you are diving with a buddy or dive leader who does not know your
kit, then they can instinctively look at any brand of standard SPG and know
your gas pressure, but may not know how to read your model of computers
display.

If you do buy the air-integrated unit I would strongly recommend a normal
SPG as a back-up device, for all the above reasons.

On 7 Sep 2004 02:34:12 -0700, alunharford@yahoo.com wrote:

>Lazarus X wrote:
>
>> Seriously though, my opinion is that an SPG is a nice simple device
>> that tells me how much gas I have left at a glance (i.e. 2/3s between
>> empty and full). It never requires a back light and the batteries
>> never fail, A gas integrated computer requires a subconscious
>process
>> to work out what numbers like 120 mean (you analogue brain needs to
>> work out how full or empty the tank(s) are). It requires a back
>light
>> and the battery may fail. If the battery fails on my computer, I
>> switch to my backup tables, if they fail on a gas integrated
>computer,
>> I would have to switch to tables (assuming the dive is not no-stop -
>> note: why am I using one of these things for deco diving?) AND I have
>> to worry about how much gas I have left which will probably increase
>> my breathing rate which will make me worry more about how much gas I
>> have left. The solution is a backup analogue SPG. If I am carrying
>> an analogue SPG as a backup then I may as well use it as a primary
>(as
>> it is more reliable) and ditch the air integrated computer and save a
>> few £s in the process.
>>
>> The down side? If I don't use a gas integrated computer, I won't
>know
>> the time to die! IMO a gas integrated computer introduces far too
>> many failure/complication scenarios when there is a cheaper more
>> effective solution available.
>
>Firstly, although you lose some reliability from having a battery, you
>gain some from losing a hose + O-rings.

But you do gain a hunk of inflexible metal that can snap clean off if
you hit something. The trouble is with air integrated (unless they
have improved significantly over the last few years) is that the
communication between the two devices is invariably quite poor.
Therefore, to get the best possible link quality you have to mount it
sticking out rather than down.

> If your battery fails, how much
>gas do you have left? Enough to get you to your next stop (which at
>that point is all you need to know because the dive is over) - you
>planned the dive. If your SPG fails due to a catastrophic hose failure,
>you've got a bigger problem.

If your battery fails you lose your deco information and your gas
information. IMO that is a bad thing, especially if you are chasing
the no-stop times (this is bad!). The way around it is to use
secondary devices such as a d-timer with tables and a secondary SPG.
If you go down that route then you have additional failure points.

ATEOTD, I don't know how pertinent are these points are as the kind of
diver that would be using this kind of device is more likely to be
doing no-stop dives with a single tank which means that the surface is
only a few minutes away. The problems occur when the diver starts
chasing no-stop times and that has the potential of creating a lot on
unknowns. Especially if the battery fails at the most exposed point.

>So you're making it slightly more likely that you'll have to exit the
>water, in exchange for making the worst possible failre less likely.

>Secondly, if you don't know what "200 bar" means in terms of empty/full
>without having to think for too long, you probably shouldn't be diving,
>so analogue v digital readout is pretty much a non-issue.

Read my post back again. My point is that it is extra mental cycles.
For example, a quick glance at an analogies gauge tells me exactly how
much gas I have, whereas a number like 120 needs to be compared with a
point of reference which has to be retrieved from memory and then
mentally converted to a fraction. To illustrate this point, how many
times have you looked at a digital clock/watch and looked at the time
but 1 second later you have to look again because you didn't actually
read the time? This is far less likely to happen with an analogies
watch/clock because it is compatible with the way our brain works.
This is true because an when you look at the analogue clock/watch,
even if you don't read it you are more likely to retain a mental
picture that it is somewhere between half past two and quarter to
three. In the digital world, this does not hold because it is a
collection of numbers and there is no point of reference. If you now
add a touch of narcosis and a smidgen of stress and things can get
quite technical.

> Backlight:
>You're going to have to turn it on anyway to check your no-deco time so
>you lose nothing by checking your gas at the same time.

True but you are more likely to read one and not the other. Also, by
putting the two together, you are more likely to confuse the two.
This is the reason I want my ppO2 on my handsets and my dive
information on my wrist. The most important information to me whilst
underwater is my ppO2 and I don't want there to be even the slightest
chance that I may misread the information.

>I carry both. The reason I carry my SPG is that it's an easy way to
>tell somebody else how much gas I have, or ask somebody how much gas
>they have.
>When I'm no longer training I'll probably remove it.

So you are saying that it is easier to read an SPG. My point exactly.

>And personally I always use my computer to see how much gas I have left
>- since I'm checking no-deco time / deco information / depth anyway, I
>may as well know how much gas I have left and vise-versa. It's also on
>my wrist - which is nice.

Clearly that works for you. Personally, I can't see anything that gas
integrated computers offer for the extra £s. But that's just me.

Laz

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A foolproof method for sculpting an Elephant:
First, get a huge block of marble. Then, chip away
everything that doesn't look like an Elephant.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Change "nospam" to "ntlworld" to reply.

> To illustrate this point, how many
> times have you looked at a digital clock/watch and looked at the time
> but 1 second later you have to look again because you didn't actually
> read the time?

I do that all the time... :O)

David