Headaches & PFOs

In article <d0fhhs$pnr$1@news.cybercity.dk>, Dave <spam@someone.else>
writes

>If you think you may have a heartcondition, I definitely think you
>should get it tested (even if you are not diving).
>Testing for PFO should simply be a matter of making an ECG
>(echocardiography), but the doc will probably make an EEG
>(electrocardiography) first, as this could rule-out the possibility of
>an PFO (thus making the ECG unnecessary).

You've made a few mistakes there with your abbreviations.

Echo (echocardiogram) is the test of choice for PFO.

ECG [US:EKG] (electrocardiogram) may show nothing - plenty of PFOs have
no adverse effects on electrical activity and in those few that do, the
electrical effects may be intermittent.

EEG (electroencephalogram) is something different altogether - although
it may be used for the investigation of headaches it is performed
routinely and will certainly not show a PFO.

>Both examinations are quite simple and fast, and have no special
>prerequisites on your part.

ECG is simple, EEG a little less so and the most sensitive type of
echocardiogram is performed via a trans-oesophageal route, which may be
a little uncomfortable.

--
David Mahon

In article <pPiO$e43a2KCFwGm@earth.amigo.co.uk>, David Mahon
<news@amigo.co.uk> writes

>EEG (electroencephalogram) is something different altogether - although
>it may be used for the investigation of headaches it is performed
>routinely and will certainly not show a PFO.

oops - NOT performed routinely [for headaches].

--
David Mahon

ITMA wrote:
> I'd be interested to hear what people know or think of headaches
after
> surfacing.
<snip>

I used to suffer from headaches on every dive. Then I slowed down my
ascent rate and started doing a safety stop on every dive. I now use a
rate around 3-5 metres a minute. If diving deeper I always do deep
stops.

I increased my fluid consumption before the dive, and made sure I was
reasonably well organised, so that kitting up was a less rushed, less
stressed affair.

I also worked hard to INCREASE my gas consumption by concetrating on
deeper, regular breathing.

As many people on here will know, my OC sac rate (I'm now diving CC)was
a ridiculous 10, down to as low as 8 in warm water.

I suffer from migraine occasionally out of the water. I have had one
"unexplained bend", and no I have not had a PFO test. I'm a heavy
smoker and overweight and not exactly fit.

Since making the changes above (before changing to CC) I reduced the
headache incidence to only those very hot days with a lot of exertion
pre and post dive.

I put mine down to a combination of CO2 retention from un intential
skip breathing, de hydration and stress.

Also check your hood and seals when dry suit diving do not constrict
unduly and that any wetsuit is not so tight that you are unable to
breathe deeply.

For peace of mind a PFO test is of course an option.

KR

Digs

Digs wrote:
> ITMA wrote:
>> I'd be interested to hear what people know or think of headaches after
>> surfacing.

Don't ignore them, while lots of divers do get them, they are a sign of
sub-clinical DCS. It'll go away, but you need to do something about
your pre-dive routine to alleviate things.

> I used to suffer from headaches on every dive. Then I slowed down my
> ascent rate and started doing a safety stop on every dive. I now use a
> rate around 3-5 metres a minute. If diving deeper I always do deep
> stops.

Ditto.

> I increased my fluid consumption before the dive, and made sure I was
> reasonably well organised, so that kitting up was a less rushed, less
> stressed affair.

It's pretty certain now that the bend I suffered a couple (more now?)
years ago was down to dehydration. At least that's what the quack
says...

I now drink a silly amount of water pre-dive, and don't suffer from
headaches anymore unless I go back to diving air on OC, in which case
I'll always have a nitrogen headache afterwards.

Al.

"digs" <somogyi@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1110287889.003942.146340@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
>
> ITMA wrote:

>
> As many people on here will know, my OC sac rate (I'm now diving CC)was
> a ridiculous 10, down to as low as 8 in warm water.

Damn! I try hard to get it down to 16!!

Ken

On 8 Mar 2005 05:18:09 -0800 in uk.rec.scuba, digs says:

[Headaches]
>Also check your hood and seals when dry suit diving do not constrict
>unduly

That's been a causal element for me, usually needs drysuit and a tight
hood and cold water.

--
Ian
"Democracy, what we need - Kakistocracy what we've got"

> Now, I am not an expert in these matters, but I have sort-of been where
> you are (when I got my first certificate, I was diagnosed with a minor
> defect in the aorta valve). So, first of all:
>
> If you think you may have a heartcondition, I definitely think you should
> get it tested (even if you are not diving).
> Testing for PFO should simply be a matter of making an ECG
> (echocardiography), but the doc will probably make an EEG
> (electrocardiography) first, as this could rule-out the possibility of an
> PFO (thus making the ECG unnecessary).

Not an expert? you said it. You are completely wrong in your statement that
an ECG can diagnose an intra-cardiac shunt.

Pete S. Who has gone a long way away, but will still insist on posting every
now and then.

I used to suffer with short lived headaches after a dive as I had a habit of
holding my breath. I now make a concious effort to regularly exhale as much
as I can, then try to exhale a little bit more. The result is no headache on
surfacing.

It seems the cause of my headache was a carbon dioxide build up that could
possibly result in loss of conciousness ... not good eh.

Jen


"ITMA" <mindyourown@business.com> wrote in message
news:422b0728_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
> I'd be interested to hear what people know or think of headaches after
> surfacing.
>
> I used to dive in the UK in the early 1990's and always surfaced with a
> headache when diving from a RIB, and often at other times. Depths were
> typically 10-25m. I shore-dived off Greece without a wetsuit down to about
> 15m the year before last & was fine. I dived in the Red Sea last October
> after spending an hour or two rolling around on a dive boat getting to the
> site, and with the engine fumes too of course, and headaches reoccurred
> except on one occasion on the last day of the holiday when it dawned on me
> I'd been mad to follow the herd, all fighting against the swell to put on
> wetsuits, when a T-shirt suffices (to 18m, anyway!)
>
> I'm obviously thinking it might simply be the stress & hassle of kitting
up
> on a moving boat, aggravated by engine fumes, that is at the root of this,
> and the urgency of getting in the water somehow suppresses the headache
> until surfacing, or else its something to do with holding your head back
at
> 90 degrees to see where you're going underwater, though the possibility of
a
> medical 'problem' is a worry.
>
> A dive magazine from c.Oct 04 had a letter from a club member who often
> surfaced with headaches, and had then suffered an inexplicable bend. My
> efforts to email that person, to further share her experiences, met with
> couple of replies from a branch official clearly anxious that I should not
> pursue any contact (for whatever mysterious reason).
>
> Meanwhile, whoever's on the other end of enquiries@ddrc.org declined to
> reply, but DAN kindly responded with a two page pdf article about
headaches,
> listing all sorts of things other than bend-related stuff, which is
> reassuring on the one hand but leaves me still wanting to 'bottom out' so
to
> speak any possibility of one of those PFO's which seem to be the
fashionable
> topic of the last few months. How do you get them tested / repaired?
>
>

"Jen" wrote

>I used to suffer with short lived headaches after a dive as I had a habit
>of
> holding my breath. I now make a concious effort to regularly exhale as
> much
> as I can, then try to exhale a little bit more. The result is no headache
> on
> surfacing.
>
> It seems the cause of my headache was a carbon dioxide build up that could
> possibly result in loss of conciousness ... not good eh.

I was going to let this thread go without comment, but since you brought it
up, I'll add my few pence worth.

Anytime I hear somebody talk about headaches during or after a dive, my
first thought is CO2 buildup. While I understand that other factors may
also cause this problem, CO2 headaches are very common. At one time or
another, almost everybody skip breathes. Some do it simply because it is
natural to hold your breath underwater. Others do it because they believe
it will extend their gas supply for a longer dive (it doesn't, by the way).
Whatever the reason, CO2 buildup is a common effect of skip breathing and a
headache is a normal symptom of C)2 buildup.

Jen, breathing out as completely as possible is not necessary to reduce Co2
buildup. Steady, deep breathing will do the trick and, in very short order,
becomes so natural that you forget you are doing it. Follow this plan and
something else will happen. Your consumption will reduce. Slow and deep
breathing is relaxing and being relaxed is the fastest route to low gas
consumption I know.

Lee

"Lee Bell" wrote
> I was going to let this thread go without comment, but since you brought
it
> up, I'll add my few pence worth.
>
> Anytime I hear somebody talk about headaches during or after a dive, my
> first thought is CO2 buildup. While I understand that other factors may
> also cause this problem, CO2 headaches are very common. At one time or
> another, almost everybody skip breathes. Some do it simply because it is
> natural to hold your breath underwater. Others do it because they believe
> it will extend their gas supply for a longer dive (it doesn't, by the
way).
> Whatever the reason, CO2 buildup is a common effect of skip breathing and
a
> headache is a normal symptom of C)2 buildup.
>
> Jen, breathing out as completely as possible is not necessary to reduce
Co2
> buildup. Steady, deep breathing will do the trick and, in very short
order,
> becomes so natural that you forget you are doing it. Follow this plan and
> something else will happen. Your consumption will reduce. Slow and deep
> breathing is relaxing and being relaxed is the fastest route to low gas
> consumption I know.
>
> Lee
>
Thanks for the advice Lee,

It is difficult to overcome what is default behaviour. I suppose for me the
long exhalation is at least making me more aware of my default breathing
behaviour underwater so is going some way to reducing the CO2 build up,
enough it seems to prevent the headache on surfacing.

I was talking about this to a guy on my livaboard last week who swore the
Nitrox was the solution for him. His consumption was astonishing, always
coming out with at least twice the gas of anyone else. I did wonder whether
CO2 build up was his problem too as there were comments of 'he just doesn't
breathe' from anyone who buddied him. But then I wasn't sure what role the
Nitrox played in reducing his headaches cos an eggspurt on gases I aint.

Jen