Two Excursions In One Day?

Jer <gdunn@airmail.ten> wrote:

>Greg Mossman wrote:
>> "Jer" <gdunn@airmail.ten> wrote in message
>> news:cgrp1n$9k1@library1.airnews.net...
>>
>>
>>>I wonder how much of a stink there'd be if someone went down there and
>>>practiced their underwater fence cutting skills when they weren't
>>>looking? Now that would be some real fun.
>>
>>
>> I dunno. The dolphins at the one "dolphin encounter" I've tried weren't
>> captive. Nothing was stopping them from jumping out of their pens and into
>> the Pacific since the nets that "kept them in" ended at the surface. Maybe
>> they like the comforts of home with all the free fish.
>>
>
>
>Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that
>according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out
>of a fishing nets to save their own lives, let alone jump over a simple
>fence to save their freedom. You're right, Greg, you don't know, or
>maybe you're just confused. There's nothing free about those fish.

They aren't fish they are mammals.

>They don't belong there, they're captive, and that constitutes abuse.
>When money changes pockets to witness this abuse, that constitutes
>exploitation. IMO, neither are acceptable.

grandma Rosalie

"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote:

>"Rosalie B." <gmbeasley@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:0rj4j0peu6q1qmhmhajhm9erj27qa7u7ol@4ax.com.. .
>> Jer <gdunn@airmail.ten> wrote:
>>
>> >Greg Mossman wrote:
>> >> "Jer" <gdunn@airmail.ten> wrote in message
>> >> news:cgrp1n$9k1@library1.airnews.net...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>I wonder how much of a stink there'd be if someone went down there and
>> >>>practiced their underwater fence cutting skills when they weren't
>> >>>looking? Now that would be some real fun.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I dunno. The dolphins at the one "dolphin encounter" I've tried
>weren't
>> >> captive. Nothing was stopping them from jumping out of their pens and
>into
>> >> the Pacific since the nets that "kept them in" ended at the surface.
>Maybe
>> >> they like the comforts of home with all the free fish.
>> >
>> >Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that
>> >according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out
>> >of a fishing nets to save their own lives, let alone jump over a simple
>> >fence to save their freedom. You're right, Greg, you don't know, or
>> >maybe you're just confused. There's nothing free about those fish.
>>
>> They aren't fish they are mammals.
>
>You misread his post (I think). There's nothing free about the fish that
>are fed to the dolphins. They work for them.
>
Well I think he expressed himself poorly and ditto for you. I could
interpret what you wrote (They work for them) as meaning that the fish
were the bosses of the dolphins, rather than that the fish were a
reward for the dolphin performing tricks or whatever which I suppose
is what you meant..

He said dolphins won't jump out of fishing nets, and then said
"There's nothing free about those fish", which I interpreted to mean
that the dolphins weren't free even though they physically could jump
out as that was what he had been talking about.

I knew the fish being used for food were not free (as in free to swim
away, not as in costing nothing). I didn't even think about the idea
that he meant that they cost the dolphins nothing.

"Free" is an easy word to get confused. because it has several
completely different meanings. I once wrote my mom that I had seen a
sign on a wood chip plant that said "Smoke and Plastic Free", and she
wrote back and asked why anyone would pay for smoke.


grandma Rosalie

Lee Bell wrote:
> "Jer" <gdunn@airmail.ten> wrote in message
> news:cgu1kp$raf@library2.airnews.net...
>
>>Greg Mossman wrote:
>>
>>>"Rosalie B." <gmbeasley@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>>>news:0rj4j0peu6q1qmhmhajhm9erj27qa7u7ol@4ax.com ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that
>>>>>according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out
>>>>>of a fishing nets to save their own lives, let alone jump over a simple
>>>>>fence to save their freedom. You're right, Greg, you don't know, or
>>>>>maybe you're just confused. There's nothing free about those fish.
>>>>
>>>>They aren't fish they are mammals.
>>>
>>>
>>>The fish that are fed to the dolphins are mammals? They looked like
>
> frozen
>
>>>dead fish to me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>They don't belong there, they're captive, and that constitutes abuse.
>>>>>When money changes pockets to witness this abuse, that constitutes
>>>>>exploitation. IMO, neither are acceptable.
>>>
>>>
>>>Of course it's exploitation, but I don't see the abuse.
>>
>>Of course you don't. Exploitation of live animals = abuse. How dare
>>you assume to actually know what another living thing thinks. How
>>fxxking arrogant is that?
>
>
> Ummm, you presume the same thing, don't you?
>
> Lee
>


I'm presuming what, Lee? That I know what another intelligent creature
is thinking? Not even. If I presume anything, I presume they prefer to
be left alone so they can go about their lives doing whatever they need
to do. They can go find a mate, raise a family teaching their own young
what they need to know for independence. I don't expect animals to
provide me with entertainment, that's not what they're here for. When I
prefer entertainment, I'll gladly pay for it, but not at the cost of
another's domination. That price is way out of line.

As a diver, I visit the ocean realm to witness it's beauty, the grandeur
of nature as it was just before I arrived, and leave it the same after
my too soon departure. I relish the thought that one day our own
successors may bear witness to what has occupied my dreams all of my
life. I cannot abide the loss of a dream, especially when it's not mine
to lose.


--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know." -- Richard Wilbur

"Jer" <gdunn@airmail.ten> wrote in message
news:cgud4j$f8i@library2.airnews.net...

> I'm presuming what, Lee? That I know what another intelligent creature
> is thinking? Not even. If I presume anything, I presume they prefer to
> be left alone so they can go about their lives doing whatever they need
> to do. They can go find a mate, raise a family teaching their own young
> what they need to know for independence. I don't expect animals to
> provide me with entertainment, that's not what they're here for. When I
> prefer entertainment, I'll gladly pay for it, but not at the cost of
> another's domination. That price is way out of line.

Why would you presume that? Perhaps they enjoy civilization for the same
reasons people do: security. I'd rather be 'imprisoned' in my home and
city, rather than have to live in the woods trying to forage for and/or
catch my own food, victim to the elements, no medical care if I'm injured.
Just fix me up with a cute female dolphin and I'd be a happy camper.

> As a diver, I visit the ocean realm to witness it's beauty, the grandeur
> of nature as it was just before I arrived, and leave it the same after
> my too soon departure. I relish the thought that one day our own
> successors may bear witness to what has occupied my dreams all of my
> life. I cannot abide the loss of a dream, especially when it's not mine
> to lose.

So you tramp through the underwater homes of millions of little fishies,
traumatizing them with your bubbles and your strobes and the wake of your
fins. How'd you like it if someone suddenly showed up in your bedroom
wearing a wetsuit? Yet you selfishly presume that they don't mind your
presence. How rude!

"Jer" <gdunn@airmail.ten> wrote in message
news:cgthkg$86m@library2.airnews.net...
>
> Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that
> according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out
> of a fishing nets to save their own lives, let alone jump over a simple
> fence to save their freedom. You're right, Greg, you don't know, or
> maybe you're just confused. There's nothing free about those fish.
> They don't belong there, they're captive, and that constitutes abuse.
> When money changes pockets to witness this abuse, that constitutes
> exploitation. IMO, neither are acceptable.

I don't necessarily disagree with you Jer. However, based only upon what I
was told, when I swam with the dolphins in Cuba, they told me that there
were no nets/barriers hampering their departure. I was told that the
dolphins could leave the cove at any time they chose and that they chose to
remain.

Since I had no reason to believe otherwise, I had an enjoyable interaction.
That said, the cove did seem to be completely filled with dolphin crap (or
who knows where the ick came from). Not to mention that it was breeding
time and the male dolphins were a bit randy and boistrous.

In any event, since I am so calm and easily float in the water, they didn't
mind me at all. I entered without fins or flotation device. The only other
bold entrepid was a humanoid male thrashing about with fins and flailing
arms. The dolphins didn't care for him at all and wouldn't interact with
him. I got shoved about but only as they had been trained to do.

Of course, this whole experience was before my enlightenment. I believe
that I would not repeat that excursion as presented. An interaction in the
true wild would now be greatly appreciated . . .but also undertaken with
extreme caution. As I understand it, this kind of interaction can come with
some penalty if the dolphins are especially frisky. What seems playful to
them can mean broken ribs or worse for us humanoids.

>
>
> --
> jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
> "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
> what we know." -- Richard Wilbur
>

"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote:

>"Rosalie B." wrote
>
>> >You misread his post (I think). There's nothing free about the fish that
>> >are fed to the dolphins. They work for them.
>
>> Well I think he expressed himself poorly and ditto for you. I could
>> interpret what you wrote (They work for them) as meaning that the fish
>> were the bosses of the dolphins, rather than that the fish were a
>> reward for the dolphin performing tricks or whatever which I suppose
>> is what you meant.
>
>You could interpret it that way. That would be wrong too. We know what you
>thought. You misread, which is all I said. That you misread has now been
>confirmed. No big deal.

I wrote not to excuse myself for misinterpreting what was written but
to point out that it was expressed inexactly in a way that might lead
people into errors of interpretation. It should not be necessary to
dissect a ng post with sentence diagrams to figure out what was meant.

Plus a lot of people DO think dolphins are fish, and there are in fact
some fish that are called dolphins and I find this mistake very
irritating.

BTW I'm completely opposed to the swim with the dolphins thing in
almost all cases where the dolphins are captive.


grandma Rosalie

"Rosalie B." wrote

> Plus a lot of people DO think dolphins are fish, and there are in fact
> some fish that are called dolphins and I find this mistake very
> irritating.

Hopefully, none of them are members of this particular group.

Nobody interacts with Dolphins (the fish) except by hook and line. I'm not
sure about Dolphins (the football players).

Lee

In article <cgu1kp$raf@library2.airnews.net>, Jer <gdunn@airmail.ten>
wrote:

€ Greg Mossman wrote:
€ > "Rosalie B." <gmbeasley@mindspring.com> wrote in message
€ > news:0rj4j0peu6q1qmhmhajhm9erj27qa7u7ol@4ax.com...
€ >
€ >
€ >>>Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that
€ >>>according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out
€ >>>of a fishing nets to save their own lives, let alone jump over a simple
€ >>>fence to save their freedom. You're right, Greg, you don't know, or
€ >>>maybe you're just confused. There's nothing free about those fish.
€ >>
€ >>They aren't fish they are mammals.
€ >
€ >
€ > The fish that are fed to the dolphins are mammals? They looked like frozen
€ > dead fish to me.
€ >
€ >
€ >>>They don't belong there, they're captive, and that constitutes abuse.
€ >>>When money changes pockets to witness this abuse, that constitutes
€ >>>exploitation. IMO, neither are acceptable.
€ >
€ >
€ > Of course it's exploitation, but I don't see the abuse.
€
€ Of course you don't. Exploitation of live animals = abuse. How dare
€ you assume to actually know what another living thing thinks. How
€ fxxking arrogant is that?
€
€ > They know how to jump.
€
€ Yes, they do, they jump all over the place in the wild. Experts far
€ smarter than you or I have been trying to understand why they do certain
€ things, so I'll defer to their as yet unresolved position.
€


I have some friends in the Navy who know far more about dolphin
behavior than you ever will (they've spent their lives working with and
training them), and they'll disagree with you. Dolphins stick around
(usually) because they want to. Occasionally, they also don't stick
around, which kind of shoots your "enslaved" argument full of holes.

Alan

"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote:

>"Rosalie B." wrote
>
>> Plus a lot of people DO think dolphins are fish, and there are in fact
>> some fish that are called dolphins and I find this mistake very
>> irritating.
>
>Hopefully, none of them are members of this particular group.
>
>Nobody interacts with Dolphins (the fish) except by hook and line. I'm not
>sure about Dolphins (the football players).

I think the OP was cross posted into several groups. I don't usually
pay too much attention to which group I read it in.
grandma Rosalie

"Alan Street" <agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:300820040647406327%agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com ...

> I have some friends in the Navy who know far more about dolphin
> behavior than you ever will (they've spent their lives working with and
> training them), and they'll disagree with you. Dolphins stick around
> (usually) because they want to. Occasionally, they also don't stick
> around, which kind of shoots your "enslaved" argument full of holes.

But are your Navy friends truly honest with the dolphins and tell them that
it's a bomb strapped to their backs or do they lie and tell them it's merely
a backpack worn because it's the latest style? I've never known the Navy to
have the dolphins' best interests in mind.

Nope, dolphins stick around simply because they're lazy. I can't blame
them. That's why I too stick around, even though the current administration
is making this country more inhospitable by the minute.

If dolphins could vote, can we presume who they'd vote for?

Dolphins for Kerry in 2004!